Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

What about the next url: http://www.cenorm.be/cenorm/businessdomains/businessdomains/ generalstandards/uncertainty+of+measurement.asp gerard -- -- Gerard Freriks, arts Huigsloterdijk 378 2158 LR Buitenkaag The Netherlands T: +31 252 544896 M: +31 653 108732 On 1-mei-2006, at 1:12, Thomas

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Heath Frankel wrote: > Tom, > Well this use case is a DV_Duration. Therefore should this new attribute be > put on DV_MEASURABLE? This might have some use cases for other Date/times > as well. This is different to partial dates. This would allow use to say > something like "this occurred before

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity William E Hammond wrote: > Just yesterday I ran into this construct in looking at a dosing > algorithm for pediatrics. Without the detail, the first time-related > logic specified for the period of less than 7 days (<7 days.

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Je suis absente du bureau jusqu'au jeudi 4 mai 2006. Sandrine Villaeys

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

William E Hammond wrote: > Just yesterday I ran into this construct in looking at a dosing algorithm > for pediatrics. Without the detail, the first time-related logic specified > for the period of less than 7 days (<7 days. The next logic line specified > >> = 7 days. Without the >=, the log

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Dear all, The CEN EN13606 EHRcom standard is using an attribute to indicate that 'something is going on' and that precautions must be taken. Resulting most often in the need for human intervention. Is such an attribute a possible intermediate solution for the problem here? Gerard -- -- Ge

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 01:15:21PM +0100, Thomas Beale wrote: >> <= >= do happen over here in Germany. > can you provide an example of a path result with either of those in it? Much to my dismay a quick grep over a couple hundred results idling in files on my machine doesn't yield a "<=" or ">=" o

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Karsten Hilbert wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 10:03:12AM +0100, Thomas Beale wrote: > > >>> Not sure of the need for <= or >=. It's either beyond the value reading >>> capability of the device or an actual value is record (within some accuracy >>> tolerance). >>> >> yes, this has alre

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 10:03:12AM +0100, Thomas Beale wrote: > >Not sure of the need for <= or >=. It's either beyond the value reading > >capability of the device or an actual value is record (within some accuracy > >tolerance). > yes, this has already been mentioned - Vince has never seen it i

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Je suis absente du bureau jusqu'au jeudi 26 avril 2006. Sandrine Villaeys

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

n Hilbert cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

ehr.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Beale Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2006 5:43 PM To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Tim, I agree with the workshop idea, and assume that it could at least be done in Australia as a starting point. Thus, fo

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Heath Frankel wrote: > Tom, > Not sure of the need for <= or >=. It's either beyond the value reading > capability of the device or an actual value is record (within some accuracy > tolerance). > > Heath > > yes, this has already been mentioned - Vince has never seen it in the millions of re

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

cc: Sent by:Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity owner-openehr-tec

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

I agree. A workshop, moment of reflexion, is needed. We must understand better the real facts, the use cases, the requirements, before we come to wrong constructs in the wrong models or the correct ones. Next we need to use the same definitions for: Data Type, Composit Data Type, Archetype. W

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > Colin Sutton wrote: >> The 'coding' is surely 'Accuracy' ('Measurement' has 'Accuracy') where >> this can be None|~|Unknown|Percentage(value)!SD(Distribution type,value) >> which would cover any measurement (e.g.height,heart rate), not just >> pathology lab values >> > this

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Tim, I agree with the workshop idea, and assume that it could at least be done in Australia as a starting point. Thus, for the short term, I am inclined to add only the very simple "<, >, <=, >=, =" indicator, and possibly consider the "~" one (since these at least allow us to properly repres

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Folks, I will repeat myself. You are talking about a data type. This DV_Quantity is a number. The question is how do we embellish this data type and the number it presents with extra codes/numbers to indicate: types of certainty/ uncertainty, and statistical distributions. The only real meani

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Colin Sutton wrote: > The 'coding' is surely 'Accuracy' ('Measurement' has 'Accuracy') where this > can be None|~|Unknown|Percentage(value)!SD(Distribution type,value) > which would cover any measurement (e.g.height,heart rate), not just pathology > lab values > this seems pretty close to a co

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > Sam Heard wrote: >> It is a flag that says the value is very uncertain - accuracy is not >> known - how do we say this - or a quality factor makes the reading >> very uncertain. I just want to be able to see how we express when >> accuracy is poor but not quantifiable. >> Sam

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas, In a data type like DV - in my mind- only flags can be raised that indicate the technicalities of that number. And that means "round off error" with which it is reported. All other flags are at the archetype level. Null-Flavors belong there. It is all at the semantic level, the know

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Sam Heard wrote: > It is a flag that says the value is very uncertain - accuracy is not > known - how do we say this - or a quality factor makes the reading > very uncertain. I just want to be able to see how we express when > accuracy is poor but not quantifiable. > Sam > doesn't it mean that t

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

The 'coding' is surely 'Accuracy' ('Measurement' has 'Accuracy') where this can be None|~|Unknown|Percentage(value)!SD(Distribution type,value) which would cover any measurement (e.g.height,heart rate), not just pathology lab values Regards, Colin Sutton #

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Monday, 20 March 2006 5:30 AM To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Grahame Grieve wrote: > I agree with this - that's it good enough now. > > I think this thread is starting to talk about things which aren't

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Heath Frankel wrote: > Tom, > Does leaving "the current DV_QUANTITY the way it is" include the ability to > record "< 5 mmol/L" for example? > yes - sorry - that was ambiguous - we have to make that addition (using a coded attribute). - t

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > Grahame Grieve wrote: >> I agree with this - that's it good enough now. >> >> I think this thread is starting to talk about things which aren't >> properly part of the data type, they are conceptual things about >> the result values, and should be modelled explicitly in the ar

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > > Sam would be better able to give an idea of all the health professionals > who have been consulted, but certainly in Australia, Vince McCauley (a > pathologist) has been extremely helpful on pathology result detail. > Also, people like Heath Frankel and Grahame Grieve who h

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

hi Thomas > is it your feeling that we need to have a better model of accuracy, i.e. > more like the confidence interval idea? Or are we ok with what we have? well. a measured quantity is a group of data, with some or all of the following things known: - what was measured - how it was measured

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

I agree with this - that's it good enough now. I think this thread is starting to talk about things which aren't properly part of the data type, they are conceptual things about the result values, and should be modelled explicitly in the archetypes. Grahame Thomas Beale wrote: > > Sam woul

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Sam Heard wrote: > Dear Tom and all > > I must say that quantifying accuracy and uncertainty is very difficult > - and I do like the inclusion of ~ in the set of flags to mean > approximately - when there is no idea of accuracy from a mathematical > point of view. I think we may lose something i

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Grahame Grieve wrote: > I agree with this - that's it good enough now. > > I think this thread is starting to talk about things which aren't > properly part of the data type, they are conceptual things about > the result values, and should be modelled explicitly in the archetypes. Grahame, is it

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Sam would be better able to give an idea of all the health professionals who have been consulted, but certainly in Australia, Vince McCauley (a pathologist) has been extremely helpful on pathology result detail. Also, people like Heath Frankel and Grahame Grieve who have worked with HL7v2 mess

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > Tim Churches wrote: >> >>> Tim, if the accuracy_is_percent attribute was upgraded to a coded >>> value, could you suggest a set of meanings that would cover all the >>> epi/PH needs? >>> >> >> You'll have to tell me what that would involve. A single coded value? >> Uppe

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Gerard Freriks wrote: > Hi, > > A few words from a non-techie. > > Quantity means that what is the resulting figure expressing a quantity. > Hb: 8.5 mmol/L > > A property of the Hb measurement can be an uncertainty. > This is not an uncertainty of the figure "8.5", but of the Hb > measurement wh

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Hi, A few words from a non-techie. Quantity means that what is the resulting figure expressing a quantity. Hb: 8.5 mmol/L A property of the Hb measurement can be an uncertainty. This is not an uncertainty of the figure "8.5", but of the Hb measurement where 8.5 is the correct resulting number

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Tim Churches wrote: > >> Tim, if the accuracy_is_percent attribute was upgraded to a coded value, >> could you suggest a set of meanings that would cover all the epi/PH >> needs? >> > > You'll have to tell me what that would involve. A single coded value? Upper > and lower limits? Confid

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas Beale wrote: > > Concerning my last reply on this subject, > > I feel the appropriate solution is: > * add an attribute value_qualifier of type STRING with allowable values >>, <, >=, <=, = (since this is a closed list, using coded terms doesn't > seem to be useful) > * allow ELEMENT.null_

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Tim Churches wrote: > Thomas Beale wrote: > >> Concerning my last reply on this subject, >> >> I feel the appropriate solution is: >> * add an attribute value_qualifier of type STRING with allowable values >> >>> , <, >=, <=, = (since this is a closed list, using coded terms doesn't >>>

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Concerning my last reply on this subject, I feel the appropriate solution is: * add an attribute value_qualifier of type STRING with allowable values >, <, >=, <=, = (since this is a closed list, using coded terms doesn't seem to be useful) * allow ELEMENT.null_flavour and DV_QUANTIFIED.accura

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

. Regards Vince - Original Message - From: Thomas Beale To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 5:26 AM Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Grahame Grieve wrote: hi I don't think that the concept of &

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Vincent McCauley wrote: > Hi Thomas, > Specific points: > 1. My pathology software supports <= and >= in this context but I have > not come across an automated blood analyser > interface that supports or requires this and in the couple of databases > I looked at (approx. 15X10^6 numeric values ove

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

hi I don't think that the concept of <,> etc should be conflated with the concept of approximately and doubtful in the model. the approximate and doubtful always raise the issue of why and how and so I think that should be a matter for the archetype to resolve. However < and > etc, should be a

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

e To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Just going through the replies we have had on this one. a.. Gerard's point about <5 etc being an exception is not quite right

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Raise the proper flag that indicates that it is TRUE and we know how to interpret. GF -- -- Gerard Freriks, arts Huigsloterdijk 378 2158 LR Buitenkaag The Netherlands T: +31 252 544896 M: +31 654 792800 On 1-mrt-2006, at 23:03, Heath Frankel wrote: > Gerard, > There are cases where we get

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

AM To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Thomas, I agree it is very common. But when <5 is reported in essence it means that it is an exception. It is not a precise result. It does not mean that it is less than 5 only. It m

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Thomas, I agree it is very common. But when <5 is reported in essence it means that it is an exception. It is not a precise result. It does not mean that it is less than 5 only. It means that something of an exceptional state in in order. It could be zero, it could be 4.999.. And anything in bet

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

_ From: Vincent McCauley [mailto:vin...@mccauleysoftware.com] Sent: Wednesday, 1 March 2006 2:12 PM To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Cc: Tom Beale; Heath Frankel Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity Hi Sam, This case is I believe actually a measure of accuracy of a

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

nheriting from quantity. Regards Vince Dr Vincent McCauley MB BS, Ph.D McCauley Software Pty Ltd - Original Message - From: Sam Heard To: Heath Frankel Cc: Tom Beale ; Openehr-Technical Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Pathology numeric values no

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 08:31:23PM +0930, Sam Heard wrote: > I like the flags - I wonder if we should have a ? or ! for the value affected > by a quality issue - what do others think? Probably "?" for dubitable results. "!" is commonly used here for marking up (perhaps unexpectedly) clinically im

Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

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Pathology numeric values not supported in DV_Quantity

Hi, yy What does it mean? To my mind it semantically means a state of exception. Meaning not only that the measurement is yy but that it is unmeasurable. If this reasoning is true than each archetype with a measurement needs an exception attribute. In general this will be true in many more c