On 23/04/2013 19:57, Thomas Beale wrote:
They are catered for
http://www.w3schools.com/schema/schema_dtypes_date.asp, but I have
to admit, in a pretty annoying way. But better than not being catered
for...
The lack of support for hh:??:?? is actually the fault of the ISO8601
standard,
Subject:
Re: Trying to understand the openEHR Information Model
From:
*Tim Cook tim at mlhim.org*
Date:
24/04/2013 15:29
To:
For openEHR technical discussions openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org
Hi Bert,
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl
On 24/04/2013 15:52, Thomas Beale wrote:
Subject:
Re: Trying to understand the openEHR Information Model
From:
*Tim Cook tim at mlhim.org*
Date:
24/04/2013 15:29
To:
For openEHR technical discussions openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org
Hi Bert,
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:28 PM
On 04/24/2013 04:52 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
A, I got it. Now I think I understand. You aren't building a
constraint based multi-level modelling system. You are modelling
archetypes in RelaxNG. Correct?
Yes, that it is. I had more difficulties explaining this, must be a
rather
On 04/24/2013 05:09 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
I am quite sure that RelaxNG or even XML Schema 1.0 will work just
fine for that solution.
XML Schema doesn't do it, not even in 1.1
But that is a detail.
Bert
On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
On 04/24/2013 05:09 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
I am quite sure that RelaxNG or even XML Schema 1.0 will work just fine
for that solution.
XML Schema doesn't do it, not even in 1.1
But that is a detail.
It is an
On 04/24/2013 06:12 PM, Timothy W. Cook wrote:
On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl
mailto:bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
On 04/24/2013 05:09 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
I am quite sure that RelaxNG or even XML Schema 1.0 will work
just
On 24/04/2013 16:23, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/24/2013 04:52 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
A, I got it. Now I think I understand. You aren't building a
constraint based multi-level modelling system. You are modelling
archetypes in RelaxNG. Correct?
Yes, that it is. I had more difficulties
On 04/24/2013 07:14 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
if you want to distribute that, it would be a great example RM for the
ADL workbench - do you have it in BMM format?
Yes, Thomas, of course I can show it, but I don't know what BMM is.
But it is a very simple definition. Just for fun. I wrote it in
On 24/04/2013 18:27, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/24/2013 07:14 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
if you want to distribute that, it would be a great example RM for
the ADL workbench - do you have it in BMM format?
Yes, Thomas, of course I can show it, but I don't know what BMM is.
But it is a very
On 04/24/2013 07:56 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
Fun is good.
:)
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad
Op 22 apr. 2013 om 23:19 heeft Thomas Beale thomas.beale at
oceaninformatics.com het volgende geschreven:
which rules is it breaking? As far as I know, openEHR XML documents validate
normally against the schemas.
yes, I said it wrong, later in the message I said
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad
Op 22 apr. 2013 om 23:19 heeft Thomas Beale thomas.beale at
oceaninformatics.com het volgende geschreven:
well, we already had that debate. It's not what we use it for - we don't do
any 'modelling' in XSD, it's just an interoperability schema.
Sorry I explained
On 22/04/2013 23:26, Bert Verhees wrote:
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad
Op 22 apr. 2013 om 23:19 heeft Thomas Beale thomas.beale at
oceaninformatics.com het volgende geschreven:
which rules is it breaking? As far as I know, openEHR XML documents validate
normally against the schemas.
yes, I
have ADL, AOM, and object transforms
What is missing is that xml offers validation and query out of the box,
which means it has been developed and optimized for years by many companies
and communities, and mostly is good quality software.
Op 23 apr. 2013 09:14 schreef Thomas Beale
thomas.beale
On 23/04/2013 10:37, Bert Verhees wrote:
have ADL, AOM, and object transforms
What is missing is that xml offers validation and query out of the
box, which means it has been developed and optimized for years by many
companies and communities, and mostly is good quality software.
ok but
Well, we have explored the use of Schematron and how it can be
automatically generated from archetypes (the idea was to rewrite CDA
implementation guides as CDA archetypes and generate schematron
automatically from them). I won't go into much detail, but we were
able to generate assert and report
hi Tom
you kind of need to set the ground rules for this. It's not really
practical to use schematron to do detailed terminology validation.
Must serious attempts end up creating some kind of web service terminology
server that can be invoked from the schematron rules.
Once you've done that,
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
Another very important restriction for using XML Schema, in my opinion, is
that you cannot have two or more elements with the same name but a
different data type. This data type must be in detail the same. XML
Hi Tim,
There are many reasons and benefits to using Type4 UUIDs. I cannot
imagine that RelaxNG has any magic to allow global elements to be the
same name and have different types or two elements at the same level
Sometimes study helps to expand imagination. You should go beyond your
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
Why are you angry? If you are satisfied about your solution, if you feel
strong about it, what is then your problem?
You know the Chinese saying: Let thousand flowers bloom.
What makes you angry about my effort to
On 04/23/2013 12:39 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
On 23/04/2013 10:37, Bert Verhees wrote:
have ADL, AOM, and object transforms
What is missing is that xml offers validation and query out of the
box, which means it has been developed and optimized for years by
many companies and communities,
On 04/23/2013 08:13 PM, Timothy W. Cook wrote:
But when you mention my name or my project specifically and make
incorrect assertions I will correct them.
That is acceptable, but I thought you were criticizing me, and that is
not needed to correct incorrect assertions. That gave me the
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Thomas Beale
thomas.beale at oceaninformatics.com wrote:
out of interest Tim, did you look at Releax NG or Schematron?
Yes and 1.1 implements everything that RelaxNG and Schematron had to be
implemented for in the first place. I wasn't involved but it looks
Hi Bert,
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
I said already, study it, don't following your intuition. I already gave
you a simple example how RelaxNG could have prevented your
GUID-element-names, a few weeks ago.
Anyway, I will come back to this, in
On 04/23/2013 09:49 PM, Timothy W. Cook wrote:
Hi Bert,
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl
mailto:bert.verhees at rosa.nl wrote:
I said already, study it, don't following your intuition. I
already gave you a simple example how RelaxNG could have
Hi bert
Although risking to be a pleasure killer ;), but on my iPad 3 (and iPhone) I
have a little globe symbol to the left of the space bar that allows toggling of
languages.
As
http://www.theipadguide.com/faq/how-can-i-type-different-languages-turn-international-keyboards-ipad
explains it
Hi Bert,
Xquery wasn't stable in 2006 when we needed a query language. AQL was
implemented by Ocean by 2007 and has been working since then, and
something similar implemented by companies in Brazil. Later on, Marand
implemented it, and I suspect someone else.
I don't know anyone who has done
On 04/22/2013 10:01 AM, Thomas Beale wrote:
Hi Bert,
Xquery wasn't stable in 2006 when we needed a query language. AQL was
implemented by Ocean by 2007 and has been working since then, and
something similar implemented by companies in Brazil. Later on, Marand
implemented it, and I
On 22/04/2013 10:01, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/22/2013 10:01 AM, Thomas Beale wrote:
Hi Bert,
Xquery wasn't stable in 2006 when we needed a query language. AQL was
implemented by Ocean by 2007 and has been working since then, and
something similar implemented by companies in Brazil. Later
On 04/22/2013 02:12 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
On 22/04/2013 10:01, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/22/2013 10:01 AM, Thomas Beale wrote:
Hi Bert,
Xquery wasn't stable in 2006 when we needed a query language. AQL
was implemented by Ocean by 2007 and has been working since then,
and something
On 22/04/2013 21:44, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/22/2013 02:12 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
On 22/04/2013 10:01, Bert Verhees wrote:
But I understand your point, we can discuss that without bashing XML:
You are saying that people may want to use another storage than
XML-databases, and than they
I don't think there is an AQL engine open source yet, but in any case it only
makes sense when there is an open source openEHR EHR service, which there
currently is not.
I don't think it is possible to write an AQL engine right now, because it is
not defined well yet. One can only
I am very anxious to learn why the current XPath/XQuery-specifications are
not good enough.Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad
I meant to write curious instead of anxious, stupid autocorrection of iPad.
Bert
Op 21 apr. 2013 om 00:00 heeft Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl het
volgende
I meant to write curious instead of anxious, stupid autocorrection of iPad.
That is one dangerous--and very amusing--iPad. :-) Speak calmly to it next
time. Bert, by this you got my day off to a rollicking start.
Randy
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl
Yes, it is an IPad configured for use in Dutch, and sometimes it spontaneously
starts understanding English, and sometimes it mixes both languages, and
sometimes it rewrites words silently.
There is no quick way I know to change the language, so I look at all words
with red lines under them.
Hi Randy
I guess it does so far at least. I guess there will only be a few back end
openEHR servers in the future, one or two of which are likely to be open source.
The idea is that the query layer is further away from the implementation layer
than is usual for a health care system. The way
On 19/04/2013 16:06, Randolph Neall wrote:
Seref, to add to my questions:
AQL is the most neglected, yet, probably one of the most important
components of an openEHR implementation.
Does this imply that each implementation of openEHR is sufficiently
different from others as not to allow
On 19/04/2013 15:17, Randolph Neall wrote:
Hi Seref,
In my humble opinion, AQL is the most neglected, yet, probably one of
the most important components of an openEHR implementation. It is not
part of the implementation, but it has been implemented by at least
two vendors that I know of,
Hi Seref,
In my humble opinion, AQL is the most neglected, yet, probably one of the
most important components of an openEHR implementation. It is not part of
the implementation, but it has been implemented by at least two vendors
that I know of, with a third having something quite similar to it.
Seref, to add to my questions:
AQL is the most neglected, yet, probably one of the most important
components of an openEHR implementation.
Does this imply that each implementation of openEHR is sufficiently
different from others as not to allow for easy sharing of such things as
search or
I'm glad you've considered doing that. In my humble opinion, AQL is the
most neglected, yet, probably one of the most important components of an
openEHR implementation. It is not part of the implementation, but it has
been implemented by at least two vendors that I know of, with a third
having
On 17/04/2013 22:04, Randolph Neall wrote:
Thomas, somehow I'm not finding the AQL specification. It's probably
right under my nose on your specification/release page. Also, do you
have any references describing the AQL processor? Did you write
*/that/* from scratch?? It would seem that the
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Randolph Neall
randy.neall at veriquant.comwrote:
Using path-based blobbing probably isn't a million miles from such DBs.
Personally I used a wonderful object database called Matisse (still around
today), which essentially operates as a graph db with write-once
I should probably point out that there are some dozens of openEHR
operational deployments
http://www.openehr.org/who_is_using_openehr/healthcare_providers_and_authorities,
all heavily using AQL for screen population, reporting and so on. The
performance is perfectly adequate in all of these
The performance is perfectly adequate in all of these systems for the
kinds of queries used in point of care (e.g. typically sub 1-second), and
in some cases where ETL is implemented, the performance is also acceptable.
It's also true that quite a lot of effort and thinking has gone into
On 17/04/2013 18:47, Randolph Neall wrote:
The performance is perfectly adequate in all of these systems for the
kinds of queries used in point of care (e.g. typically sub 1-second),
and in some cases where ETL is implemented, the performance is also
acceptable. It's also true that quite a
Thomas, somehow I'm not finding the AQL specification. It's probably right
under my nose on your specification/release page. Also, do you have any
references describing the AQL processor? Did you write *that* from
scratch?? It would seem that the AQL processor would indeed function as
a formidable
AQL is not part of the official specification yet.
Regards
Seref
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Randolph Neall
randy.neall at veriquant.comwrote:
Thomas, somehow I'm not finding the AQL specification. It's probably right
under my nose on your specification/release page. Also, do you have
Seref, I was simply trying to take your hint. :).
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Seref Arikan
serefarikan at kurumsalteknoloji.com wrote:
AQL is not part of the official specification yet.
Regards
Seref
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Randolph Neall
randy.neall at veriquant.com
big risk - it's a combination of how likely it is, and how bad it is if
they are.
Generally, current location, current medication lists, summary lists are
things where contention can happen. Quite often, I've seen, a cascade of
things will happen on a patient simultaineously as multiple people
Yes, in the lab situation we typically saw this multiple times a day -
multiple people trying to update the same cluster of records at the same
time. So the scenario is a typical relational database- a cluster of
related records, some information in fields, and some in blobs as a
structured text.
well, yes, there'd be nothing lost, and everything would be in the database.
But if the users can only see the last update, then prior stuff is lost anyway.
If, on the other hand, users can see the older updates, then they'd simply have
no idea what information was current.
I think of that
These scenarios were one of the reasons we were very careful to properly
model commit time (system time) separately from the times of the visit,
observations, actions etc (world time). The commit of the info may come
days late, but it is always easy to determine a) what other clinicians
could
Hi Gavin and others!
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 4:39 PM, gjb gjb at crs4.it wrote:
I thought about this a few years ago and came to the conclusion that
the GUI/Client would need quite a bit of savvy HCI.
The person working on the data need to be kept informed
of how/when the system maybe
Hi Thomas,
Again, you've advanced my grasp of openEHR.
the change set in openEHR is actually not a single Composition, it's a set
of Composition Versions, which we call a 'Contribution'. Each such Version
can be: a logically new Composition (i.e. a Version 1), a changed
Composition (version /=
On 16/04/2013 18:55, Randolph Neall wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Again, you've advanced my grasp of openEHR.
the change set in openEHR is actually not a single Composition, it's
a set of Composition Versions, which we call a 'Contribution'. Each
such Version can be: a logically new Composition (i.e.
Using path-based blobbing probably isn't a million miles from such DBs.
Personally I used a wonderful object database called Matisse (still around
today), which essentially operates as a graph db with write-once semantics,
and I would love to have a side-project to build an openEHR system on that.
: Re: Trying to understand the openEHR Information Model
Hi!
Good questions! Many of the questions regarding versioning etc are explained in
chapter 6 of
http://www.openehr.org/releases/1.0.2/architecture/rm/common_im.pdf
I'll briefly address some questions and hope others have time
/2013 08:45
De : Erik Sundvall erik.sundvall at liu.se
A : For openEHR technical discussions
openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org
Copie ? :
Sujet : Re: Trying to understand the openEHR Information Model
Hi!
Good questions! Many of the questions regarding versioning etc are explained
On 15/04/2013 04:07, Randolph Neall wrote:
I just spent quite a few profitable hours today with ehr_im.pdf, which
appears to be the main resource for understanding the Information
Model or Reference Model, available for download from the CKM web
site.
Overall, it's a very well-written
On 15/04/2013 11:54, Thomas Beale wrote:
the update logic is Composition-level, and you can't commit something
smaller than a Composition. The default logic is 'optimistic' meaning
that there is no locking per se; instead, each request for a
Composition includes the version (in meta-data
this makes sense for EHR and similar systems because there is very low /
no write competition for the same piece of the same patient record
well, that's true for some parts of the record - the historical parts.
Other parts, summary parts, that's quite untrue. In most enterprise
systems, records
On 04/15/2013 03:37 PM, Grahame Grieve wrote:
big risk - it's a combination of how likely it is, and how bad it is
if they are.
Generally, current location, current medication lists, summary lists
are things where contention can happen. Quite often, I've seen, a
cascade of things will
On 15/04/2013 14:37, Grahame Grieve wrote:
big risk - it's a combination of how likely it is, and how bad it is
if they are.
Generally, current location, current medication lists, summary lists
are things where contention can happen. Quite often, I've seen, a
cascade of things will happen
On 15/04/2013 16:15, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/15/2013 03:37 PM, Grahame Grieve wrote:
big risk - it's a combination of how likely it is, and how bad it is
if they are.
Generally, current location, current medication lists, summary lists
are things where contention can happen. Quite often,
Hi Thomas,
I can certainly see a situation where e.g A medication order was
issued and the medication administered within a short time period,
requiring dynamic persistent medication summary updates (with
references/links to the original Entries in event Compositions) where
a lazy commit could
On 15/04/2013 14:37, Grahame Grieve wrote:
big risk - it's a combination of how likely it is, and how bad it is
if they are.
Generally, current location, current medication lists, summary lists
are things where contention can happen. Quite often, I've seen, a
cascade of things will happen
You've all been very helpful and clear in responding to my questions.
What I've learned is that the basic unit of storage--and retrieval--is a
single composition, nothing bigger, nothing smaller, and certainly not the
complete roster of compositions as I had thought (based on my mistaken
notion
On 15/04/2013 15:43, Ian McNicoll wrote:
Hi Thomas,
I can certainly see a situation where e.g A medication order was
issued and the medication administered within a short time period,
well, 'short' here probably means at least minutes... that's 'long' in
computing terms.
requiring dynamic
On 04/15/2013 06:12 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
patient sees the GP, then visits a practice
nurse, without the GP record being committed first.
yes, that's certainly a possibility, if the practice solution isn't
designed to deal with it, and the staff are not trained...
In the Netherlands there
On 04/15/2013 08:37 PM, Grahame Grieve wrote:
but you can't afford to do either version based merging, or to lose
either the previously committed information
But what if every user, nurses or GP create a new composition, when they
do an addition. Then there is nothing lost.
Bert
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 08:40:59PM +0200, Bert Verhees wrote:
On 04/15/2013 06:12 PM, Thomas Beale wrote:
patient sees the GP, then visits a practice
nurse, without the GP record being committed first.
yes, that's certainly a possibility, if the practice solution isn't
designed to deal
On 04/15/2013 09:11 PM, Karsten Hilbert wrote:
It is a problem not solvable by technical means alone.
That was, more or less the point I was trying to illustrate.
But technical means should be able to support these kind of situations
in the agreed work-flow in that practice.
Bert
On 15/04/2013 17:11, Randolph Neall wrote:
You've all been very helpful and clear in responding to my questions.
What I've learned is that the basic unit of storage--and retrieval--is
a single composition, nothing bigger, nothing smaller, and certainly
not the complete roster of
On 04/15/2013 09:39 PM, Grahame Grieve wrote:
well, yes, there'd be nothing lost, and everything would be in the database.
But if the users can only see the last update, then prior stuff is lost
anyway. If, on the other hand, users can see the older updates, then they'd
simply have no idea
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