Anything that anyone thinks could be improved?
Happy to consider things... just would be nice to have a central point for
moving forward with Polymorph (in particular) or other tools...
There is a possibility of open-source release of the PackageListTool
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/12018...@n0
Gary: First of all, thanks for your excellent work.
I really like Polymorph and I use it as my default "theme". Very very
impressive.
However, squeak seems to be a bit slower with it. For example, in SqueakDBX
we are 4 developers. Two of them cannot use it because is slower enough to
loose their
Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
Gary: First of all, thanks for your excellent work.
I really like Polymorph and I use it as my default "theme". Very very
impressive.
However, squeak se
would be nice.
Stef
On Jan 29, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Gary Chambers wrote:
> Anything that anyone thinks could be improved?
The size of MCBrowser.
> Happy to consider things... just would be nice to have a central
> point for
> moving forward with Polymorph (in particular) or other tools...
Yes
ards, Gary
From: Adrian Lienhard
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 9:37:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the great work so far!
Here some feedback...
I merged Polymorph-Widgets-gvc.36 into a current Pharo im
;
>
>
> From: Adrian Lienhard
> To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
> Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 9:37:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Thanks for the great work so far!
>
> Here some feedback...
> OB buttons - David and I will get there eventually!
yep.
I integrated your patch, but it needs some fine-tuning.
There are still places where OB directly sets button colors. This is easy to
fix.
The bigger problem is that with your patch we get problems in all other systems
not
using Polymor
Hi Adrian,
> Furthermore, In the OB Browser there are two types of blue buttons. It
> would be nice to have a consistent style for buttons.
What exactly do you mean with two styles of blue buttons? One style for
instance / ?
/ class buttons and different one for browse, hierarchy, variables,
Hi David,
I meant the two different styles of blue buttons that you see on the
screenshot below.
Is this the latest version I am looking at?
Cheers,
Adrian
<>
On Jan 30, 2009, at 16:01 , David Röthlisberger wrote:
Hi Adrian,
Furthermore, In the OB Browser there are two types of blue bu
> I meant the two different styles of blue buttons that you see on the
> screenshot below.
> Is this the latest version I am looking at?
no, can you execute 'ScriptLoader loadOBAlpha' to get the latest version?
David
> On Jan 30, 2009, at 16:01 , David Röthlisberger wrote:
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
On Jan 30, 2009, at 17:19 , David Röthlisberger wrote:
>
>> I meant the two different styles of blue buttons that you see on the
>> screenshot below.
>> Is this the latest version I am looking at?
>
> no, can you execute 'ScriptLoader loadOBAlpha' to get the latest
> version?
yep, that looks n
lymorph was added and #213 is the most recent version.
BTW, with OB: 8590ms.
Cheers,
Adrian
>
>
> Thanks for the support.
>
> Regards, Gary.
> - Original Message -
> From: Mariano Martinez Peck
> To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
> Sent: Thursday, Januar
On 1/29/09 11:56 AM, Gary Chambers wrote:
> Anything that anyone thinks could be improved?
Not sure if this is the type of feedback you're looking for but I'd like
to see some UI behavior changed/modernized:
1) Multiple selection support.
2) Generally, the context of where the mouse pointer is
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Phil wrote:
> On 1/29/09 11:56 AM, Gary Chambers wrote:
> > Anything that anyone thinks could be improved?
>
> Not sure if this is the type of feedback you're looking for but I'd like
> to see some UI behavior changed/modernized:
>
> 1) Multiple selection support.
>> 1) Multiple selection support.
>
> I would love to have this when generating accessor automatically. VERY often
> I would like to only create accessors for some fields, not all. And
> sometimes I want create just the setter or the getter, not both of them. So,
> yes. I think this would be nice.
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
> >> 1) Multiple selection support.
> >
> > I would love to have this when generating accessor automatically. VERY
> often
> > I would like to only create accessors for some fields, not all. And
> > sometimes I want create just the setter or t
Hi Gary,
Thanks for Polymorph, it does a very good job when showing Squeak/Pharo
to Smalltalk-advert people...
A thing that i find clumsy with watery is the taskbar. There is no way
to distinguish Browsers/workspace/other windows. The original Squeak
uses different colors for that. Maybe the
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>
> On my machine I get:
>
> Squeak 3.9: 3800ms
> Pharo #084: 2950ms
> Pharo #213: 5200ms
>
> #084 is before Polymorph was added and #213 is the most recent version.
>
> BTW, with OB: 8590ms.
ouch...
any obvious hotspots?
Michael
__
2009/1/31 Michael Rueger :
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On my machine I get:
>>
>> Squeak 3.9: 3800ms
>> Pharo #084: 2950ms
>> Pharo #213: 5200ms
>>
>> #084 is before Polymorph was added and #213 is the most recent version.
>>
>> BTW, with OB: 8590ms.
>
> ouc
> We used to measure GUI performance with the "Browser-Bench":
>
> time _ 0.
> saveMorphs _ self currentWorld submorphs.
> 5 timesRepeat:[
> self currentWorld removeAllMorphs. "heh, heh"
> time _ time + (Time millisecondsToRun:
> [
> 1 to: 10 do: [:i | Browser fullOnClass: SystemDictionary se
on mac os 9.0 :)
Stef
On Jan 31, 2009, at 1:29 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> 2009/1/31 Michael Rueger :
>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adrian Lienhard
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On my machine I get:
>>>
>>> Squeak 3.9: 3800ms
>>> Pharo #084: 2950ms
>>> Pharo #213: 5200ms
>>>
>>> #084 is before
January 30, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> Hi Gary,
>
> Thanks for Polymorph, it does a very good job when showing Squeak/Pharo
> to Smalltalk-advert people...
>
> A thing that i find clumsy with watery is the taskbar. There is no way
> to
StandardSqueak 5391.0
Vistary 7081.8
Watery 6521.8
Goes to show that you can't get something for nothing!
Regards, Gary.
- Original Message -
From: "Stéphane Ducasse"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
Really no other gripes?
Regards, Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Gary Chambers"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
On Vista with each theme I get:
Watery2 5200
SoftSqueak 4651.6
StandardSqueak 4082.8
Vistary 537
From: "Gary Chambers"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
On Vista with each theme I get:
Watery2 5200
SoftSqueak 4651.6
StandardSqueak 4082.8
Vistary 5378.4
Watery 4979.6
StandardSqueak compares relatively favourably with Squ
> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not
> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not
> know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do.
+10 to this.
The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experience is it's
just too slow. C
2009/2/7 Ramon Leon :
>> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not
>> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not
>> know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do.
>
> +10 to this.
>
> The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experie
Igor
:)
do you have some code so that we make progress on that side.
On Feb 7, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> 2009/2/7 Ramon Leon :
>>> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not
>>> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not
>>> know whether it is fast
When I here that I'm like puzzled.
We never said that we will not integrate code that speed up pharo.
We started with marcus to clean morphic and there are certainly a
large place for
possible improvement.
Now if you wait that we do it. May be it will happen or may be not.
Because we have also qu
2009/2/7 Stéphane Ducasse :
> When I here that I'm like puzzled.
> We never said that we will not integrate code that speed up pharo.
> We started with marcus to clean morphic and there are certainly a
> large place for
> possible improvement.
> Now if you wait that we do it. May be it will happen
Yes I imagine
OB is a bit complex :)
On Feb 8, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> 2009/2/7 Stéphane Ducasse :
>> When I here that I'm like puzzled.
>> We never said that we will not integrate code that speed up pharo.
>> We started with marcus to clean morphic and there are certainly a
>>
Some measures:
i turning off drawing a specific pane (panexx setProperty:
#errorOnDraw toValue: true) in OB browser window, and then do
[self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas] timeToRun
to determine which pane takes most time to draw:
- everything on (Watery 2 theme)
50ms
- turning off drawing
tx igor
On Feb 8, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> Some measures:
>
> i turning off drawing a specific pane (panexx setProperty:
> #errorOnDraw toValue: true) in OB browser window, and then do
> [self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas] timeToRun
> to determine which pane takes most time to
I'll make the drop shadows themable for system windows.
The default way Morphic does drop shadows is quite inefficient.
Regards, Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Igor Stasenko"
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI grip
e (or group
of rectangles to avoid excessive fills) since we know that
systemwindow is rectangular beforehead.
> Regards, Gary
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Igor Stasenko"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project]
les to avoid excessive fills) since we know that
> systemwindow is rectangular beforehead.
>
>
>> Regards, Gary
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Igor Stasenko"
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:23 PM
>> Subject:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 17:58, Bill Schwab wrote:
> I suppose I could suggest replacing some of the button bars with more compact
> iconic toolbars. Things like debugging over, into, etc. lend themselves well
> to that. The world menu will not make much sense if we ever get one window
> per sh
ple rectangle (or
>> group
>> of rectangles to avoid excessive fills) since we know that
>> systemwindow is rectangular beforehead.
>>
>>
>>> Regards, Gary
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Igor Stasenko"
>>> To:
tion of
>>> drawDropShadowOn: for SystemWindow, to draw simple rectangle (or
>>> group
>>> of rectangles to avoid excessive fills) since we know that
>>> systemwindow is rectangular beforehead.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Regards, Gary
>>>
o :
>>>> 2009/2/8 Gary Chambers :
>>>>> I'll make the drop shadows themable for system windows.
>>>>> The default way Morphic does drop shadows is quite inefficient.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right, i think it would be wise to
>>>> 2009/2/8 Gary Chambers :
>>>>>> I'll make the drop shadows themable for system windows.
>>>>>> The default way Morphic does drop shadows is quite inefficient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, i think it would
for automated benchmarking i can imagine something like following:
benchButton
| browser button canvas time |
browser := OBPackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #yourself.
browser position: 0...@0.
button := browser allMorphs detect: [:m | (m
isKindOf:PluggableButtonMorph ) and: [ m label =
Tx igor.
:)
I'm looking for examples to teach people how to benchmark.
Stef
On Feb 8, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> for automated benchmarking i can imagine something like following:
>
> benchButton
> | browser button canvas time |
> browser := OBPackageBrowser openOnClass: Object sel
Damien,
The pieces for themes are certainly present. Maybe we can excavate to find a
Win98 SE box that still runs and take some notes. IIRC, there is a skin
manager/loader for Squeak, and some of the skins it loaded were fairly tame.
Depending on licensing, a simple member of that collection
Hi Igor,
> OB is quite complex thing, and its hard to understand what it does for
> outsider :)
>
> I just identified a few points, which can improve rendering speed by a
> certain amount:
[...]
> - default.
> 60 ms
>
> - with override in SystemWindow>>drawDropShadowOn: aCanvas to do nothing:
2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
> Hi Igor,
>
>> OB is quite complex thing, and its hard to understand what it does for
>> outsider :)
>>
>> I just identified a few points, which can improve rendering speed by a
>> certain amount:
> [...]
>> - default.
>> 60 ms
>>
>> - with override in SystemWindo
>
>>>
>>>
>
> I can implement such method, but concerning integration - i'm not in
> charge here :)
Our motto is if code is there and people agree this is integrated :)
So go :)
>
>
> What is interesting about shadows, that by default a shadow offset is
> 1 pixel wide:
> shadowOffset: 1...@1
>
>
Sig,
Is it something that could be themed? Then it could be present in the
"expensive" themes and left out for a limited theme that would hopefully still
look nice, have robust focus behavior, but seeks to be as fast as possible.
Bill
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Departme
Rounded things are tricky to do with no direct support in canvas/balloon.
Regards, Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Igor Stasenko"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> I'm also want to play with roundi
- Original Message -
From: "Damien Pollet"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 17:58, Bill Schwab wrote:
>> I suppose I could suggest replacing some of the button bars with more
t: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> 2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>> Hi Igor,
>>
>>> OB is quite complex thing, and its hard to understand what it does for
>>> outsider :)
>>>
>>> I just id
gy
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
Email: bsch...@anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 273-6785
FAX: (352) 392-7029
>>> gazzagu...@btinternet.com 02/10/09 8:25 AM >>>
- Original Message -
From: "Damien Pollet"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:52 PM
Subject:
2009/2/10 Bill Schwab :
> Sig,
>
> Is it something that could be themed? Then it could be present in the
> "expensive" themes and left out for a limited theme that would hopefully
> still look nice, have robust focus behavior, but seeks to be as fast as
> possible.
>
A shadow drawing can be co
- Original Message -
From: "Bill Schwab"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> Gary,
>
> Space to sides of the buttons?? Perhaps unrelated, but I have been
> thinking of something similar while poking
uesday, February 10, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> 2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>> Hi Igor,
>>
>>> OB is quite complex thing, and its hard to understand what it does for
>>> outsider :)
>>>
>>> I just identifie
2009/2/10 Gary Chambers :
> Rounded things are tricky to do with no direct support in canvas/balloon.
>
I did some experimenting to draw a rounded rects using balloon bezier curves..
I was disappointed in speed :(
Moreover, if border is drawn w/o antialiasing, it looks very ugly and
inaccurate.
t: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
2009/2/10 Gary Chambers :
Rounded things are tricky to do with no direct support in canvas/balloon.
I did some experimenting to draw a rounded rects using balloon bezier
curves..
I was disappointe
in speed since CornerRounder still applies to
> the actual
> window morph.
>
> Regards, Gary
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Igor Stasenko"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripe
ssage -
From: "Igor Stasenko"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
> 2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>> Hi Igor,
>>
>>> OB is quite complex thing, and its hard to understand what it does for
>&g
, February 10, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
Hi gary
do you need some icons?
What size?
because I should draw some of them for david too.
Stef
On Feb 10, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Gary Chambers wrote:
The about-to-be-put-on-SqueakSource version of Polymorph now has them
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
>
>
> Hi gary
>
> do you need some icons?
> What size?
> because I should draw some of them for david too.
>
> Stef
> On Feb 10, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Gary Chambers wrote:
>
>>
Regards, Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Stéphane Ducasse"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
for david I imagine that I'm doing them in 14x14. But I can check some
in 16*16
I 'm also really confused by the di
I've put that change into the lastest Polymorph-Widgets. In absence of
negative feedback that seems appropriate.
Regards, Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Bill Schwab"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes
G
>> As for,
>> 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new:
>>
>> Total count of ByteString>>new: calls during
>> GlobalCounter reset.
>> self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas.
>> GlobalCounter counters copy inspect
>>
>> is 7146,
>> which again makes me look suspicious at OB here.. Hey! Are w
2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>
>>> As for,
>>> 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new:
>>>
>>> Total count of ByteString>>new: calls during
>>> GlobalCounter reset.
>>> self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas.
>>> GlobalCounter counters copy inspect
>>>
>>> is 7146,
>>> which again makes
> But again, there is no excuse in doing this each time you need a tree.
> Thanks to system notifier we have a ways to determine when category
> tree needs to be rebuilt, so it can be built once and stay cached
> until user add/remove/rename category.
yes, right. Packages are cached for a long t
2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>
>
>> But again, there is no excuse in doing this each time you need a tree.
>> Thanks to system notifier we have a ways to determine when category
>> tree needs to be rebuilt, so it can be built once and stay cached
>> until user add/remove/rename category.
>
> yes
Igor Stasenko schrieb:
> 2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>>
>>> But again, there is no excuse in doing this each time you need a tree.
>>> Thanks to system notifier we have a ways to determine when category
>>> tree needs to be rebuilt, so it can be built once and stay cached
>>> until user add/rem
2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
> Igor Stasenko schrieb:
>> 2009/2/10 David Röthlisberger :
>>>
But again, there is no excuse in doing this each time you need a tree.
Thanks to system notifier we have a ways to determine when category
tree needs to be rebuilt, so it can be built once
>>> Also, note, that you need only one instance of such tree in image .
>>> You don't have to build this tree over and over again for each browser
>>> window on screen :)
>> In a way, yes.
>> But then OB would basically do what the system itself should do, namely
>> modeling
>> packages. I would
The next version (Polymorph-Widgets-gvc.45) will support adaptive layout
insets for buttons in the Watery2 theme dependent upon the corners that are
rounded. For square buttons this will save 8 pixels horizontally per button.
I'll put on SqueakSource once enough other changes are made to Polymor
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