[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

> On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:44, Ethan Furman wrote: > > Of course I don't know if Keara or Guido knew any of this, but it certainly > feels to me that the commit message is ostracizing an entire family line > because they had the misfortune to have the wrong last name. In fact, it > seems like S

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

- Original Message - > From: "Ethan Furman" > To: "Python Development List" > Cc: "Keara Berlin" > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:44:33 PM > Subject: [Python-Dev] Recent PEP-8 change > > On 06/29/2020 08:13 AM, Keara Berlin wrote: > > > Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be signifi

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 06/30/2020 05:03 AM, Łukasz Langa wrote: On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:44, Ethan Furman mailto:et...@stoneleaf.us>> wrote: Of course I don't know if Keara or Guido knew any of this, but it certainly feels to me that the commit message is ostracizing an entire family line because they had the misfo

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

> Basically, it feels like we were lied to. And if that wasn't bad enough, to see that Guido accepted that vitriolic commit message and merged it in ... it makes me embarrassed to be a Python supporter. Only Guido could attest to this, but as someone who spoke in support of the change, I personal

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

> The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the current > text was racist in any way; then we find out that, apparently, we've been > harboring white supremacist ideals by prescribing when to use apostrophes and > commas? That commit message (not the commit itself) took wh

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

I didn't want to participate in this discussion, but I will, probably for the following reasons: - I'm French - I bought a copy of Strunk & White during my first trip to the US, in 1990, in a desperate attempt to improve my english writing style. - I can't say it changed my life, but I found the a

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 10:38 AM Piper Thunstrom > The actual advice in The Elements of Style are mostly inoffensive when > taken on their own, and out of context. The problem is that the Elements of > Style (And many works like it) are built on a system of white supremacy. > The grammarian movement

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Thank you, Piper. This is exactly what I meant to say, and a very good explanation. I appreciate your time and energy. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 09:23 Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the > current text was racist in any way; then we find out

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:39 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > > The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the current > > text was racist in any way; then we find out that, apparently, we've been > > harboring white supremacist ideals by prescribing when to use apostrophes >

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > No we don't. Who are you to tell others what they should be aware of > or what they should fight for? And why should I join your battle that > I don't even agree with? Most of us probably had no idea what Elements > of Style was before th

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 17:36 Piper Thunstrom, wrote: It specifically > was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages and things like AAVE (though > that term would not exist for decades after the movement reached a > furor). I mean, surely not only did it exclude "lower class" terms and AAVE (African

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Which people in the Python community are entitled to say that they find a commit message to be offensive and have that claim treated seriously, compassionately, and as a good reason for accommodative action? Under what circumstances is the appropriate response of the community a dismissive "you a

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

> The grammarian movement, in general, was built on elevating a very specific > form of English over others. Hmm, I'm curious: which form of English do you propose Python should standardize on? I agree that for code comments it may not matter much, but it probably does for documentation. There ar

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Mmm. Well, we said what we had to say. I think we both agree there's no point in continuing. ;-) Cheers. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > > No we don't. Who are you to tell others what they should be aware of >

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 6/30/20 12:18 PM, Jim F.Hilliard wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 17:36 Piper Thunstrom, > wrote:  > > It specifically > was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages and things like AAVE (though > that term would not exist for decades after the movement reache

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 30/06/2020 17:48, Alan G. Isaac wrote: Which people in the Python community are entitled to say that they find a commit message to be offensive and have that claim treated seriously, compassionately, and as a good reason for accommodative action? Anyone, for any reason. IMHO, obviously. We

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 30/06/2020 17:42, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hmm, I'm curious: which form of English do you propose Python should standardize on? Regards Antoine. I suggest Geordie or Glaswegian on the grounds that most people outside of the UK have probably never heard of them hence they should be regard

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 30/06/2020 18:02, Mark Lawrence wrote: I suggest Geordie or Glaswegian on the grounds that most people outside of the UK have probably never heard of them hence they should be regarded as neutral in any world wide debate on English. Possibly not. I do recall an occasion when a Glaswegian a

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 30/06/2020 16:54, Piper Thunstrom wrote: I do not. We must, as a community, examine our prejudices and aim to be welcoming or we're going to see a split in Python much worse than Py2 -> Py3. Curiously I am yet to see any acknowledgement that the change itself may be detrimental to neuro-aty

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

I am imagining the pain and hurt these conversations will cause for people who are not as well positioned and not as comfortable in the community. Just want to throw out a counterpoint to the imagined people - as a real person who is not well positioned or comfortable in the community. I've

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining. On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote: The grammarian movement, in general, was built on elevating a very specific form of English over others. It specifically was chosen to avoid "low

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 2:34 AM Greg Ewing wrote: > > Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over > the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining. > > On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > The grammarian movement, in general, was built on > > elevating a very specific form

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

To paraphrase the Bible: "For where two or three gather, there is politics with them." Changing the commit message, as it has been merged, is now practically hard and highly unusual. If you use GitHub search, you can find other examples of commit messages that would be rewritten if that was doable

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

I agree with you it is over the top, but let's enjoy the popcorn together! On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:35, Greg Ewing wrote: > Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over > the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining. > > On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > The grammar

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 01:40:56 +0100 Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: > > What I think was meant here: S&W is inappropriate to use as a community > guideline for a diverse community like Python because it is not inclusive > and forces (a particular version of) "Standard English" on others, however, > you u

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:27 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Otherwise why stop at English? I could just as well write my comments > in French if it's all about individual freedom. Requiring English is > not inclusive, it forced people like me to painfully adapt to a > language I wasn't used to. And t

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 19:38:28 +1000 Chris Angelico wrote: > Standardizing on a > single language ensures that everyone can read the comments in a > single, consistent language. That was precisely my point. But "language" doesn't stop at the broad category "English" or "French", there are variation

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 10:38, Chris Angelico wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:27 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: Otherwise why stop at English? I could just as well write my comments in French if it's all about individual freedom. Requiring English is not inclusive, it forced people like me to painfully adapt

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2/07/20 10:53 pm, MRAB wrote: Alternatively, it could be an auxiliary language like Esperanto. Maybe Esperanto in particular wouldn't be the best choice -- I gather it's rather European-oriented. Maybe we should standardise on Klingon? Humans of all cultures would find it equally difficult.

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 11:49, Ethan Furman wrote: > - it has been modernized as times have changed (the 2000 edition removed > the advice >to use masculine pronouns whenever possible, and warns that some will > find unnecessary >masculine usage offensive) > PEP-8 however does not mention

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 12:32, Greg Ewing wrote: On 2/07/20 10:53 pm, MRAB wrote: Alternatively, it could be an auxiliary language like Esperanto. Maybe Esperanto in particular wouldn't be the best choice -- I gather it's rather European-oriented. Maybe we should standardise on Klingon? Humans of all c

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: > PEP-8 however does not mention a particular edition and the version that is > readily available (in the public domain) does contain this problematic > section "to use the masculine pronouns whenever possible" which is not > inclusive. (

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 6:40 PM Chris Angelico wrote: > > True, but "inclusive" isn't just about the people *writing*. If you > write your comments in French, and someone else uses Turkish, another > uses Japanese, and still another opts for Hebrew, it becomes nearly > impossible for anyone to *rea

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 14:52:04 +0100 Paul Moore wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar > wrote: > > > PEP-8 however does not mention a particular edition and the version that is > > readily available (in the public domain) does contain this problematic > > section "to use the ma

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 02/07/2020 14:52, Paul Moore wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: PEP-8 however does not mention a particular edition and the version that is readily available (in the public domain) does contain this problematic section "to use the masculine pronouns whenever pos

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 3/07/20 1:52 am, Paul Moore wrote: What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person in a technical document... My impression is that commonly accepted language rules and usage are lagging behind, I don't know if "lagging behind" is the right term, seeing as there seems

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

[Paul Moore ] > (This is a genuine question, and I'm terrified of being yelled at for > asking it, which gives an idea of the way this thread has gone - but I > genuinely do want to know, to try to improve my own writing). > > What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person >

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:01 AM Paul Moore wrote: > What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person > in a technical document, without sacrificing clarity by using > convoluted circumlocutions like "he/her/they" or over-use of the > passive voice? My impression is that commo

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Le 2020-07-02 à 09 h 52, Paul Moore a écrit : > What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person > in a technical document, without sacrificing clarity by using > convoluted circumlocutions like "he/her/they" or over-use of the > passive voice? One technique is alternating ge

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Paul Moore wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar > wrote: > > > PEP-8 however does not mention a particular edition and the version that > is readily available (in the public domain) does contain this problematic > section "to use the masculine pro

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 16:16, Éric Araujo wrote: > Le 2020-07-02 à 09 h 52, Paul Moore a écrit : > > What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person > > in a technical document, without sacrificing clarity by using > > convoluted circumlocutions like "he/her/they" or over-us

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 02/07/2020 15:25, Inada Naoki wrote: I don't think I can write such clear English without help. But having such a goal is inclusive for non native English readers. I wouldn't be so certain. You have an advantage over native English speakers in that you don't use idiomatic cultural referenc

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Inado-san makes a very good point. The (English) language used in technical documents is not AAVE. It's not Scotts-English. It's not Jamaican vernacular. It's not Indian English. But it is ALSO not American upper-middle class, white ivy-league English. Technical documentation is a kind of DSL wit

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, 11:08 AM Piper Thunstrom > Paul, this is actually a good question to ask. In general, singular "they" > is becoming more popular. It's already used frequently for the > singular indeterminate pronoun: > The first attested use of singular they in English was in 1375 CE. I'm no

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 15:19, Piper Thunstrom wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:01 AM Paul Moore wrote: What *is* the correct inclusive way to refer to an unidentified person in a technical document, without sacrificing clarity by using convoluted circumlocutions like "he/her/they" or over-use of the pas

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 16:53, David Mertz wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, 11:08 AM Piper Thunstrom >> >> Paul, this is actually a good question to ask. In general, singular "they" >> is becoming more popular. It's already used frequently for the singular >> indeterminate pronoun: > > The first at

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 17:14, Paul Moore wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 16:53, David Mertz wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, 11:08 AM Piper Thunstrom Paul, this is actually a good question to ask. In general, singular "they" is becoming more popular. It's already used frequently for the singular indetermina

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:16 PM MRAB wrote: > Here's an article on singular 'they': > > https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ > > TL;DR: It's not a recent usage; it was OK in 1375. Forgive me for not giving a detailed play by play of 15 years of experience specifically as

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:15 PM Paul Moore wrote: > My understanding is that technically "he" takes a dual role in > English, as both masculine (technical linguistics gender) 3rd person > singular and "indeterminate" 3rd person singular (because English > doesn't have an "indeterminate-but-not-ne

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 17:47, Piper Thunstrom wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:16 PM MRAB wrote: > Here's an article on singular 'they': > > https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ > > TL;DR: It's not a recent usage; it was OK in 1375. Forgive me for not giving a detailed play by p

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:58 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: > > TL;DR: It's not a recent usage; it was OK in 1375. > > Forgive me for not giving a detailed play by play of 15 years of > experience specifically as a writer and editor. > Over the last handful of decades, singular "they" has been explici

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 02/07/2020 18:12, MRAB wrote: English isn't Latin. Bizarre as it may sound, I still occasionally find that hard to remember. My English Language teachers were only really interested in teaching English Literature, and considered grammar to be one of those unfortunate things it was better

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 02/07/2020 17:47, Piper Thunstrom wrote: In terms of modern English vernacular, singular "they" has been continuously and rigorously treated as inappropriate. I think you may be being a tad parochial again. I can think of plenty of English vernaculars that treat singular "they" as perfectl

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-02 18:19, David Mertz wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:58 PM Piper Thunstrom > wrote: > TL;DR: It's not a recent usage; it was OK in 1375. Forgive me for not giving a detailed play by play of 15 years of experience specifically as a writer an

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 7/2/2020 7:39 AM, Tim Peters wrote: Then again, we're talking about humans. There's nothing you can do - or refrain from doing - that won't mortally offend someone:-) This is the truest thing spoken in this whole thread. ___ Python-Dev mailing list

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 07/02/2020 10:19 AM, David Mertz wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:58 PM Piper Thunstrom wrote: On 07/02/2020 David Mertz wrote: TL;DR: It's not a recent usage; it was OK in 1375. Over the last handful of decades, singular "they" has been explicitly taught as inappropriate. My own college

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:51 PM Ethan Furman wrote: > But the text in question said nothing about gender issues -- it was about > race issues. Can anyone shed light on that? If there is something I need > to learn I would like to learn it. > Exactly. The explanation so far has been that it is

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 05:20, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > We're not talking about posting "your own writing", we're talking about > comments (and presumably documentation) in a collective software > project. There's a need for consistency, however it's > specified and achieved. > > Otherwise why sto

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:58:44 -0400 Random832 wrote: > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 05:20, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > We're not talking about posting "your own writing", we're talking about > > comments (and presumably documentation) in a collective software > > project. There's a need for consistency,

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:15, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:58:44 -0400 > Random832 wrote: > > Why indeed? > > Because we're talking about PEP 8, and PEP 8 intends to cover the code > style used when writing code in the *Python standard library*. ok, first of all, fair enough,

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 18:54:26 -0400 Random832 wrote: > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, at 18:15, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:58:44 -0400 > > Random832 wrote: > > > Why indeed? > > > > Because we're talking about PEP 8, and PEP 8 intends to cover the code > > style used when writing

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 3/07/20 5:37 am, Rhodri James wrote: It was in Latin classes that I learned how sentences are put together, and that's what I default to when I'm not thinking hard enough. For me it's French -- I learned much more about English grammar while studying French than I ever did from English clas

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 3/07/20 5:09 am, David Mertz wrote: "they" has long been used in that "indeterminate-not-inanimate" way since 14th century (different from "it").  "He" has often been used that as well, but really with the implication that a generic person is male. Maybe the indeterminate use of "he" was i

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

If the writing is less formal (and I think most comments and even most documentation is somewhat informal), you can sometimes just address the reader directly, as "you". For the most formal writing most people will ever encounter, one can use "one" as the singular pronoun of indeterminate gende

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

The biggest problem with this is figuring out when to switch. If you switch within a single example, you will confuse many readers. If you have a series of related examples, people will disagree about when it is reasonable to substitute a new person. Using specific personal names (Alice and

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Thu, Jul 02, 2020 at 12:47:07PM -0400, Piper Thunstrom wrote: > Over the last handful of decades, singular "they" has been explicitly > taught as inappropriate. My own college writing classes (only 10 years > ago now) included this specific piece of advice. > > In terms of modern English verna

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on Kehinde or Oladotun? Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical persons? -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-de

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

Greg Ewing writes: > On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: > > If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take > > on Kehinde or Oladotun? > > Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical > persons? Randomly generated according to what character repertoi

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-04 05:51, Greg Ewing wrote: On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on Kehinde or Oladotun? Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical persons? Ideally they should be short names, one or two syll

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 17:48, MRAB wrote: > > On 2020-07-04 05:51, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: > >> If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on > >> Kehinde or Oladotun? > > > > Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 2020-07-04 19:23, Paul Moore wrote: On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 17:48, MRAB wrote: > > On 2020-07-04 05:51, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: > >> If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on Kehinde or Oladotun? > > > > Maybe we should use ran

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 5/07/20 3:26 am, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Greg Ewing writes: > Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical > persons? Randomly generated according to what character repertoire and lexical rules (I'm not talking about British v. American)? Randomly selected ones! --

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 5/07/20 8:23 am, MRAB wrote: On 2020-07-04 19:23, Paul Moore wrote: Surely the obvious thing to do would be to use Monty Python characters? True, but if they were all called Eric it could be confusing. Also the Monty Python team were all white, so it wouldn't really solve the problem. --

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

On 04/07/2020 21:23, MRAB wrote: On 2020-07-04 19:23, Paul Moore wrote: On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 17:48, MRAB wrote: > > On 2020-07-04 05:51, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: > >> If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on Kehinde or Oladotun

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

er they/he/she vis a vis both added role/verb information and gender neutral singular/pluralisation. ---------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 11:58:16 +0200 From: Antoine Pitrou Subject: [Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change To: python-dev@python.org Message-ID: <20200702115816.77335477@fs

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:36 PM David Antonini wrote: > Surely, if the argument is to be as inclusive and easy as possible, > British English should be used? Things may have changed, but my impression > is that the majority of English-second-language (ESL) speakers learn > British English, not Ame

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:09 AM David Mertz wrote: >> An issue is that commit messages are uneditable after merge, so something >> written somewhere suggesting consideration of this would be a good idea, >> with authors/mergers bearing this in mind, however unusual a change on this >> basis woul

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 02.07.2020 21:20, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:09 AM David Mertz wrote: An issue is that commit messages are uneditable after merge, so something written somewhere suggesting consideration of this would be a good idea, with authors/mergers bearing this in mind, however

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 5:17 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: > > > On 02.07.2020 21:20, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 4:09 AM David Mertz wrote: > >>> An issue is that commit messages are uneditable after merge, so something > >>> written somewhere suggesting consideratio

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 20:33, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 5:17 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev > wrote: > > > > If you are talking about rewriting the PEP8 commit, it has proven to > cause so much damage that this is warranted despite the inconveniences IMO. > > > > I think I ag

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

Perhaps you could revert the original commit, then apply the same diff again with an adjusted message? Would that strike a good balance? Cheers, Barney On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 21:36, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 20:33, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 5:

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

> On 2 Jul 2020, at 21:38, Chris Angelico wrote: > > Formal proposal: Either request a new commit message from the original > author, or have someone rewrite it, and we go ahead and make the > change. -1 This would be serious precedent to fiddling with publicly replicated repo history. This w

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 8:34 PM Łukasz Langa wrote: > Commit messages aren't usually scrutinized to this extent. If you looked > at the last 1000 commits in cpython, you'd find quite a few with messages > that could be seriously improved. We don't though because commits are > immutable. You can re

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 10:10 AM Łukasz Langa wrote: > Commit messages aren't usually scrutinized to this extent. If you looked at > the last 1000 commits in cpython, you'd find quite a few with messages that > could be seriously improved. We don't though because commits are immutable. > You can

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 03.07.2020 3:10, Łukasz Langa wrote: On 2 Jul 2020, at 21:38, Chris Angelico wrote: Formal proposal: Either request a new commit message from the original author, or have someone rewrite it, and we go ahead and make the change. -1 This would be serious precedent to fiddling with publicly

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 08:50, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > > Per > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KQSHT5RZPPUBBIALMANFTXCMIBGSIR5Z/, > we're talking about an infinitely > less impactful peps repo (per > https://mail.python.org/ar

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 03.07.2020 15:01, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 08:50, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev mailto:python-dev@python.org>> wrote: Per https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KQSHT5RZPPUBBIALMANFTXCMIBGSIR5Z/, we're talking about an infinitely

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 03/07/2020 01:10, Łukasz Langa wrote: Commit messages aren't usually scrutinized to this extent. Commit messages are usually political statements. Formal proposal: leave this alone. -1. Simply by having it in the repository, the statement implicitly has the support of the Python commun

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 13:10, Ivan Pozdeev wrote: > So what? > Unnecessary > They'll have to synchronise their history to ours to be able to make a PR. > And if they don't, it doesn't matter for us what they do with the data > anyway since they are responsible for maintaining it and keeping it >

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 03.07.2020 15:26, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 13:10, Ivan Pozdeev mailto:v...@mail.mipt.ru>> wrote: So what? Unnecessary They'll have to synchronise their history to ours to be able to make a PR. And if they don't, it doesn't matter for us what they do with

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:03 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: > > > On 03.07.2020 15:26, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 13:10, Ivan Pozdeev wrote: >> >> So what? > > Unnecessary >> >> They'll have to synchronise their history to ours to be able to make a PR. >> And if t

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:28, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:03 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev > wrote: > > > > > > On 03.07.2020 15:26, Henk-Jaap Wagenaar wrote: > > > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 13:10, Ivan Pozdeev wrote: > >> > >> So what? > > > > Unnecessary > >> > >> They'll

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

Specifying British English (as opposed to just British spelling) would probably tempt people to use more Brit-only idioms, in the same way that Monty Python tempts people to make Flying Circus references. I don't love the idea of talking more about how many zeroes in a billion, or whether "tabl

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 2020-07-03 17:52, Jim J. Jewett wrote: Specifying British English (as opposed to just British spelling) would probably tempt people to use more Brit-only idioms, in the same way that Monty Python tempts people to make Flying Circus references. I don't love the idea of talking more about how

[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change (Antoine Pitrou)

On 4/07/20 4:52 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: Specifying British English "British English" is woefully underspecified -- there are probably more variants of English used in Britain than in the rest of the world put together. -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing