onstant, and I don't like that option at all. I also don't think this is
quite as big a deal as it seems to have become in your head. So please put
it to rest. There are many other worthy causes.
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<htt
an be done relatively cleanly with changes at both the bytecode level
and the C API level.
I'm not sure I like this better than the "pure `__getitem__/__setitem__`
scheme, because the API duplication is troublesome,
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~gui
reaction will be
> "Why the flipping heck not?"
>
> Which is why I was somewhat perplexed when it was suggested that we
> should discount this use case purely because it wasn't cited in the
> original proposal (which turned out to be wrong anyway).
>
I agree it's a fine use case. U
__`, that method is called.
Extending this with keyword args is straightforward. Modifying the compiler
to generate different bytecode for this case is essentially impossible.
See
https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/6844b56176c41f0a0e25fcd4fef5463bcdbc7d7c/Objects/abstract.c#L181-L198
for the c
you add some cases that show how `d[1]` differs from
`d[1,]`? (And perhaps explain the reason why `d[1, k=2]` follows `d[1]`
instead of `d[1,]`. I know the answer, but it's worth being clear about
this particular edge case because it has tripped up various attempts.)
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and find a separate sponsor.
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ray implementers they don't
care *how* keywords work as long as their users can write a[1, 2, k=3].
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On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:56 PM Greg Ewing
wrote:
> On 31/08/20 4:11 pm, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Okay, and if I write
> > a.__getitem__((1, 3), k=2) will the function see the same thing?
>
> No, it will see (i, j, k) == (1, 3, 2).
>
That was a typo. I meant to ask w
gt; for users of such classes.
>
Which leads to what design choices?
I think we need to watch out that we're not trying to make `a[1, 2, k=3]`
look like a function call with funny brackets. It is a subscript operation
with keyword parameters. But it is still first and foremost a subscript
operation.
passed through all the C API layers
until it reaches the tp slots. In particular it would uglify
PyObject_[GS]etItemEx.
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arently a handy (:-) feature to work around this.
There's an attachment named "attachment.htm". If you click to download this
and then open the downloaded file in the browser, it shows the original
message in plaintext. Yeah, it's not ideal, but at least it proves that I
did type what I meant. :-
simplest proposal possible --
keyword args get added to the end of `__getitem__` and `__setitem__`,
ensuring that `d[1, k=3]` is like `d[1]` + keyword, not like `d[1,]` +
keyword.
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You appear to be making a connection between star-args in a call and in a
function definition. They are unrelated. The more I hear about this the
more I favor not supporting it in the subscript syntax.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 08:44 Joseph Martinot-Lagarde
wrote:
> Guido van Rossum wr
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IMPORTANT CORRECTION! I was too eager to get to bed and made a mistake in
the summary for the d[1, a=3] cases. The key here should be '1', not '(1,)'.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 12:45 AM Guido van Rossum wrote:
> A quick summary of the proposal at the pure Python level:
>
> ```
&g
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:29 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
> FYI, Jonathan's post (once I "got" it) led me to a new way of reasoning
> about the various proposals (__keyfn__, __subscript__ and what I will keep
> calling "Steven's proposal") based on what the compiler
ive conclusion is that
Steven's proposal is superior. But I have been reviewing my reasoning and
pseudo-code a few times and I'm still not happy with it, so posting it will
have to wait.
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:08 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
> [...]
> Finally, I am unsure how you would deal with the difference between d[1]
> and d[1,], which must be preserved (for `__keyfn__ = True` or absent, for
> backwards compatibility). The bytecode compiler cannot as
ever I see a __setitem__ function I must look
everywhere else in the class (and in all its base classes) for a __keyfn__
before I can understand how the __setitem__ function's signature is mapped
from the d[...] notation.
Finally, I am unsure how you would deal with the difference between d[1]
and d[
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assign an
> ABC set (e.g. I get a warning with `foo(t= collections.abc.Set>)`. The problem then is that `collections.abc.Set[int]`
> doesn't work, i.e. you need to use typing.Set if you want generics.
>
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--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido
WTYFNTKW7PHONUCD3U2S3OO/
>> ).
>>
>> Anyway, thank you for this. I'm enjoying the discussion and I'm glad to
>> hear actual reasons that can be argued about rather than the proposal just
>> fizzling away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:20 AM Christopher Barker
wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:02 AM Guido van Rossum
>
>> Mypy includes an experimental compiler from typed Python to C that
>> actually does what the OP is looking for.
>>
>> https://gith
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:45 AM Alex Hall wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:30 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> But for your convenience you are proposing a problematic change (see
>> posts by others).
>>
>
> I think we've established it's problematic
But for your convenience you are proposing a problematic change (see posts
by others). Maybe I meant overgeneralization instead.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:20 AM Alex Hall wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:32 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> FWIW I don’t think we should add a .
Yes. That's what I meant by "the mixins are part of the contract", sorry.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:45 AM Greg Ewing
wrote:
> On 27/08/20 2:32 am, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > The mixins are part of the contract. You are free to override them,
> > their implementation
n as type annotations, but those are primarily used for type checking
> using tools such as mypy and are not used by the interpreter itself.
>
Mypy includes an experimental compiler from typed Python to C that actually
does what the OP is looking for.
https://github.com/python/mypy/tree/master/my
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Well then you can keep wondering.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 13:59 Stefano Borini
wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:54, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Because all the git history would be lost, and lots of code would break.
>
>
>
> Well, names could have b
for the stdlib.
>
> >
>
> > IIUC, both the logging and unittest design were inspired (if not
> directly ported) from Java. Which explains their out-of-place feeling
> design. As the say, “Python is not Java” — so maybe Python should not log
> and test like java?
>
> >
ilman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/
>
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>
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>
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t
> - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
>
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d[0, 1, z=2]: d.__getitem__((0, 1), z=2)
That may not be in the PEP, but apart from the edge cases for d[] and
d[x=0] it’s exactly what I and Steven have been proposing for quite a while.
—Guido
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On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 5:45 AM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:32:08AM +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:
> > On 16/08/20 11:49 am, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > >SEMANTICS OF NO ARGUMENTS
> > >I can see two basic ways of
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 10:00 PM Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 08:26:10PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > Are you saying that for xarray it is important to distinguish between
> > `d[day=3, detector=4]` and `d[detector=4, day=3]`? If we just passed th
that for xarray it is important to distinguish between
`d[day=3, detector=4]` and `d[detector=4, day=3]`? If we just passed the
keyword args to `__getitem__` as an extra `**kwds` argument (which
preserves order, since Python 3.6 at least), that should work, right? If
not, can you clarify?
--
quot; is a naughty term. (I find
"runtime use of annotations" much naughtier. :-)
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*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
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__
es based on that.
FWIW in my example I sorted the keywords, so that `d[x=1, y=2]` and `d[y=2,
x=1]` construct the same internal key. But for some use cases it might be
better if these constructed *different* internal keys. For example, Caleb's
Struct class, when used to construct a dataclass, woul
can already do with a class definition and annotations). And without static
checking this isn't going to be very popular.
If and when we have `__getitem__` with keyword args we can start thinking
about how to best leverage it in type annotations -- I would assume that
describing axes of objects like
ition, addition, linear problem solving, determinant.")
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:04 PM Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
> Guido van Rossum writes:
>
> > I was going to say that such a matrix module would be better of in
> > PyPI, but
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t behavior would still need to be defined.
>
>
> ---
> Ricky.
>
> "I've never met a Kentucky man who wasn't either thinking about going home
> or actually going home." - Happy Chandler
>
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On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:02 PM Greg Ewing
wrote:
> On 4/08/20 9:12 am, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > then presumably calling `c[1, index=2]` would just be an error (since it
> > would be like attempting to call the method with two values for the
> > `index` argument),
>
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:44 AM Rob Cliffe
wrote:
>
> On 07/08/2020 16:58, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:15 AM David Mertz wrote:
>
>> I think getting Guido on board would be a huge step. Python has added
>> quite a bit of new syntax si
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:15 AM David Mertz wrote:
> I think getting Guido on board would be a huge step. Python has added
> quite a bit of new syntax since 2014, and Guido himself is currently
> advocating another new big change (pattern matching). His opinion may have
> shif
Maybe I’m lacking context, but I don’t understand the proposal. Can you
explain the semantics and syntax you have in mind in more detail? How do
you get from the first example (@my_property etc.) to the second (def name,
def set_name)?
—Guido
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 01:13 wrote:
> I th
how it ends.
(However, it *would* be hacky to vary based on whether a statement was
followed by a certain other statement, as that would require going “up” in
the AST.)
—Guido
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To u
is includes making up your
own dunders), which means that technically the implementation could do
whatever it wants -- but since this is Python we probably want to accept
that it's called for every attribute, whether it smells like a descriptor
or not, and it would be nice to fix the docs.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 06:15:22PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:55 PM Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>
> > > That require two different rules for decorators:
> > >
> > > @
: if the decorator raises, the name
remains unbound.)
> @decorator over a binding `target = expression`:
>
> - bind `target = decorator("target", expression)`
>
> So we're adding significant complexity to the concept of "decorator".
>
(That said, I'm not a
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 12:25 AM Dominik Vilsmeier
wrote:
> On 04.08.20 22:05, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> Maybe get-type-hints can be refactored to make writing such a function
> simpler. IIRC the part that takes a single annotation and evaluates it is a
> private function.
&g
essage/T6K4DWENPM7LYXSDVYQYDVFEVBMA5K3L/
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On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:35 PM Todd wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 17:13 Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Christopher Barker
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that would be correct. However, the function could instead be
>>>
class C:
def __getitem__(self, index): ...
c = C()
then presumably calling `c[1, index=2]` would just be an error (since it
would be like attempting to call the method with two values for the `index`
argument), and ditto for `c[1, 2, 3, index=4]`. The only odd case might be
`c[index=
t;
>> If you're interested, please do try it out.
>>
>> IN MORE DETAIL:
>>
>> On 3 May 2020, Andras Tontas reopened discussion of the PEP. This PEP was
>> created in June 2014, and closed in March 2019, due to lack of interest.
>> See: https://mail.python.org/pipe
:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:34 AM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> So maybe we need to add dict.ordered() which returns a view on the items
>> that is a Sequence rather than a set? Or ordereditems(), orderedkeys() and
>> orderedvalues()?
>>
>
> I'm still
On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:59 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 04:08:43PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> [...]
> > I'm guessing that indexing by 0, if it were possible, would be a
> convenient
> > idiom to implement the "first item" op
.
Another solution could be to make dict.ordered() fail if there are deleted
keys. But that's not a great experience either.
All in all I retract this idea.
On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 5:31 PM Stestagg wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 at 00:32, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> If true this wou
Cs. I don't want to get into a similar situation with Set and
Sequence, ever.
And even though currently they *don't* have overlapping operations, the
concrete types `list` and `set` *do* run into this kind of thing for
comparison operators -- lists (and tuples) compare itemwise until a
difference is foun
be useful -- if it's infrequently, Chris B's own solution using islice() on
the items() view looked pretty decent to me, and not that hard to come up
with for someone who made it that far. For the former I expect that sooner
or later someone will write a PEP and it will be accepted (assuming the PEP
doe
gt;
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than is usually expected for an
> attribute access.
Also for compatibility (even if imperfect) with Python 2. It’s water over
the dam now.
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On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 07:01 Mathew Elman wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 at 14:42, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 02:51 Mathew Elman
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> If it *is* useful, it occurs to
>
>
> *If* you want tou propose clearer syntax for this, please extend the loop
>> syntax, not the ‘if’ syntax. So, ‘case ... zero’ makes more sense than ‘if
>> [not] break’.
>>
>
>> —Guido
>>
>
> So I understand, does this mean that any extended syntax
keywords”.
*If* you want tou propose clearer syntax for this, please extend the loop
syntax, not the ‘if’ syntax. So, ‘case ... zero’ makes more sense than ‘if
[not] break’.
—Guido
On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 03:26 Jonathan Fine wrote:
> Hi Rob
>
> You wrote:
>
> So: You're asking th
pass
>
Why not just ‘(int, dict) -> None’?
Do you think this is more intuitive? Is it viable?
>
Definitively more intuitive. With the new PEG parser it *may* be viable.
However it may make it harder in the future to introduce ‘(x, y) -> x+y’ as
a shorthand for
ved at
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interesting idea. It has always vaguely bothered me that `*args`
gives a tuple while `**kwds` gives a dict. Unfortunately it's impossible to
change without breaking tons of existing code, since things like
`kwds.pop("something")` have become a pretty standard idiom to use it.
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Did you study PEP 416 (frozendict) and PEP 603 (frozenmap)?
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ct if its content does
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can’t
extend it by adding a special method to a class — you have to subclass the
PrettyPrinter class.
All in all I don’t think this is a direction we should take.
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>
>
>
> --
> Kind regar
t;What's the difference between def and fun?
> Which should I use?", doesn't make life easier for teachers.
>
>
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allocations and system allocations making sense.
--Guido
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:25 PM Wenjun Huang wrote:
> Hi Guido,
>
> Thank you for bearing with me. I wasn't trying to say you guys are mean
> btw.
>
> I thought that the interpreter might allocate some memory for its ow
3 is most likely "no" due to the
> costs, but it would be nice if someone could weigh in on this part. Maybe
> there's some workaround.
>
If you were asking me to weigh in *now* I'd say "no", if only because you
haven't explained the reason why this is needed. And if you ha
Also, let me be clear that this feature will never be added to the language.
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 07:36 Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 03:22 Jonathan Fine wrote:
>
>> This is a continuation of my previous post to this thread.
>>
>> Python's FO
ond said so). I
invented it without awareness of prior art, by reasoning about the
similarity between IF and WHILE (FOR followed from WHILE).
—Guido
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--Guido (mobile)
_
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 9:11 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 1:43 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Yes please.
>>
>
> Yes to what, exactly?
>
> -CHB
>
> FWIW, IIRC the “bundle values in a single parameter” predates the demise
;
>
> --
> Steven
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> Message ar
020 at 11:09:42PM -0700, Caleb Donovick wrote:
>
> > I have wanted this and suggested it before for use with typing.
>
> Was Guido interested or did he reject the idea?
>
>
> --
> Steven
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> Python-ideas mailing list -- pyth
Hello Hans,
This list is more for ideas related to Python the language.
For the website, each page on python.org has a link at the bottom to the
tracker where you can submit requests for improvements and PRs for the
website itself.
—Guido
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 04:31 Hans Ginzel wrote
as well.
—Guido
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 05:40 David Mertz wrote:
> If we get this function (which I would like), the version with k items
> (default 1) is much better. Some iterators cannot be repeated at all, so
> not only is it slower to call multiple times if you need k>1, it's
thon.org/
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>
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
&
# "\xDE\xAD\xBE\xEF"
> >
> > This could work in f-strings and bytes as well. I think this might be of
> > use for people who do a lot of work with binary file formats and hex
> > escapes.
> >
> > I think this is backwards compatible t
python-ideas@python.org/message/LLK3EQ3QWNDB54SEBKJ4XEV4LXP5HVJS/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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--Guido (mobile)
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rently stops at the first matching block it comes
> to, not the best match out of all blocks. This is meant to make it easier
> to understand the “flow” of the statement, but it might be preferable to
> execute the block associated with the best match, though this would
>
I like where this is going. It would be nice if certain constants could
also be loaded from RO memory.
On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 00:16 Inada Naoki wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:00 AM Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I believe this was what Greg Stein's idea
On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 02:53 M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> On 21.06.2020 01:47, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Hm, I remember Greg's free threading too, but that's not the idea I was
> > trying to recall this time. There really was something about bytecode
> > objects being lo
worked out to the point where we could benchmark.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 4:57 AM Jonathan Fine wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Guido wrote:
>
> I remember vaguely that about two decades ago Greg Stein hatched an idea
>> for code objects loaded from a read-only segment in shared lib
for a
layout of the code object as well. But the idea was never consummated, and
I think there were unsolved problems regarding reference counts and
constants incorporated in the code object. The objectives were the same as
the subject line of this thread, and I believe so were the objections.
--
--Guido
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