[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/20/20 8:41 PM, Brendan Barnwell wrote: On 2020-11-20 01:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote: If that's really what you want, you probably should look at making a way to run Python apps in the browser. Everyone has an OS, everyone has a browser, GUI browsers have similar looking look-and-feels,

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 12:03 PM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > > On 2020-11-24 16:47, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:29 AM Brendan Barnwell > > wrote: > >> > >> On 2020-11-24 00:05, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >I'm still confused what the point is of a zipapp, if

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-25 00:42, Greg Ewing wrote: On 25/11/20 12:14 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: If you want a perfectly out-of-the-box app, you're probably going to have to stick to Tkinter. Which is only bundled with Python on Windows, as far as I know. It's also bundled with Python on Raspbian.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-24 16:47, Chris Angelico wrote: On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:29 AM Brendan Barnwell wrote: On 2020-11-24 00:05, Chris Angelico wrote: >> > >> >I'm still confused what the point is of a zipapp, if it can't be a proper point and click GUI thing, and it can't use any compiled

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:29 AM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > > On 2020-11-24 00:05, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> > > >> >I'm still confused what the point is of a zipapp, if it can't be a proper > >> >point and click GUI thing, and it can't use any compiled extensions. How > >> >it is it better

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 25/11/20 12:14 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: If you want a perfectly out-of-the-box app, you're probably going to have to stick to Tkinter. Which is only bundled with Python on Windows, as far as I know. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list --

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 25/11/20 11:48 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: In a language without declarations, how do you know that something is unused? Personally, I don't mind if I have to *tell* it what I'm using. I don't insist on the stripping-out being automatic, and I would actually prefer it not to be. To support

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-24 00:05, Chris Angelico wrote: > >I'm still confused what the point is of a zipapp, if it can't be a proper point and click GUI thing, and it can't use any compiled extensions. How it is it better than a console_script and a pip-installed package?? > It CAN be a proper

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:13 AM Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 24/11/20 9:05 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: > > It CAN be a proper point-and-click GUI thing. You can have a fully > > executable Python script if it has no dependencies (just distribute a > > single .py file with a shebang at the top) ... > >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 24/11/20 9:05 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: It CAN be a proper point-and-click GUI thing. You can have a fully executable Python script if it has no dependencies (just distribute a single .py file with a shebang at the top) ... But to most people a "proper point and click GUI thing" includes

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:56:47AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: > On 22/11/20 4:31 pm, Christopher Barker wrote: > >unfortunately, that's not how most python packages are set up -- you > >install the whole thing at once. As an example, it's really tricky to > >use even one function from scipy

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 24 Nov 2020, at 11:58, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:23:10 + > Paul Moore wrote: >> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 10:18, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:09:07 + >>> Paul Moore wrote: But it's not as limiting as you suggest - it

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:23:10 + Paul Moore wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 10:18, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:09:07 + > > Paul Moore wrote: > > > > > > But it's not as limiting as you suggest - it *does* preclude most > > > scientific use (because of numpy etc)

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 10:18, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:09:07 + > Paul Moore wrote: > > > > But it's not as limiting as you suggest - it *does* preclude most > > scientific use (because of numpy etc) but (for example) a large number > > of web libraries are pure

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:09:07 + Paul Moore wrote: > > But it's not as limiting as you suggest - it *does* preclude most > scientific use (because of numpy etc) but (for example) a large number > of web libraries are pure Python. Not sure what you mean here, but while Web frameworks

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 07:47, Christopher Barker wrote: > indeed I am. But also, where I need this sort of thing is for desktop GUIs > (wxPython in my case), another heavy user of compiled extensions. > > I'm still confused what the point is of a zipapp, if it can't be a proper > point and

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 6:47 PM Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 12:09 AM Paul Moore wrote: >> >> On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 03:37, Christopher Barker wrote: >> > My feeling is that it hits middle ground that isn't very useful. If you >> > can count on your users having a

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 12:09 AM Paul Moore wrote: > On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 03:37, Christopher Barker > wrote: > > My feeling is that it hits middle ground that isn't very useful. If you > can count on your users having a proper Python installation ,then they can > use pip to install your

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 11:32, Mathew Elman wrote: > I imagine there would be a way to have an install install the runner if there > is not one on the machine, and use the existing one if there is, and creating > a venv in either case. Meaning that using the equivalent of an embedded JRE >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> That's essentially like Java's JRE. For what it's worth, on my PC the > JRE is 196M in size. Whereas a full Python distribution is only 94M, > and the embedded distribution is 15M. So I think Python already has > that, more or less. I hadn't realised that, so thanks :) > But my experience with

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings list, On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 12:44 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 07:37:35PM -0800, Christopher Barker wrote: > > > I'm curious about zipapp -- I've heard of it, but never tried to use it > -- > > does it get much use in the wild? > > I am quite confident that

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

I suppose functionally there may be little difference, but having an explicit "runner" would allow two things: 1. the runner and stdlib for it could be in a compress format itself since it doesn't need to provide any utility for editing or navigating human readable modules. and so lighter 2.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 23/11/20 11:38 pm, Mathew Elman wrote: I would argue this sounds like a case for a "python_runner", i.e. a lightweight python vm that can run python apps, e.g. zipapps. Something like the blender_runner for blender. Making it explicitly an app that runs via some other engine. How would

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 10:39, Mathew Elman wrote: > > I would argue this sounds like a case for a "python_runner", i.e. a > lightweight python vm that can run python apps, e.g. zipapps. Something like > the blender_runner for blender. Making it explicitly an app that runs via > some other

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> > Oh, and Chrome itself needs to be updated -- only on > > what, millions of machines? V8 is bundled with Chrome -- you know, kind of > > like a > > PyInstaller app bundles Python ;-) > > Uhhh... no, that's kind of like how Python bundles Python. That's not > bundling an app. You update Chrome

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Also, virtualenv is distributed as a zipapp these days. Paul On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 08:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 07:37:35PM -0800, Christopher Barker wrote: > > > I'm curious about zipapp -- I've heard of it, but never tried to use it -- > > does it get much use in

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 07:37:35PM -0800, Christopher Barker wrote: > I'm curious about zipapp -- I've heard of it, but never tried to use it -- > does it get much use in the wild? I am quite confident that one of the most used, if controversial, Python applications in the wild is a zipapp on

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 03:37, Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 6:34 AM Paul Moore wrote: >> 4. Support for C extensions. > > That last one if VERY limiting :-( Correct. But it's ultimately an OS limitation - you can't run a shared library direct from a zipfile. There are

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings list, > 3. Executables forms other than "single file". 4. Support for C extensions. @CHB, @Barnwell I haven't replied in full to a previous email of Mr Moore, but the no support for C extensions is a crucial point for packaging. If the stdlib has to support a packaging tool, it has to

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-22 06:32, Paul Moore wrote: Definitely not. I'm thinking of something*far* more limited. Specifically, things I'm not suggesting be in the stdlib: 1. Bundling the Python binaries. 2. Stripping out unneeded modules. 3. Executables forms other than "single file". 4. Support for C

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 6:34 AM Paul Moore wrote: > > Am 20.11.20 um 11:01 schrieb Paul Moore: > > > > 2. Add something that makes writing MacOS "app bundles" from zipapps > > > easier. That could be part of the zipapp module, or a standalone > > > module. > > Definitely not. I'm thinking of

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 22/11/20 4:31 pm, Christopher Barker wrote: unfortunately, that's not how most python packages are set up -- you install the whole thing at once. As an example, it's really tricky to use even one function from scipy without installing the whole thing. Something needs to change about how

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 at 11:32, Hartmut Goebel wrote: > > Am 20.11.20 um 11:01 schrieb Paul Moore: > > 1. Add the ability for zipapp to prepend a launcher for Windows, so > > zipapps can be built that "run natively" on Windows (Unix and MacOS > > don't need this, because for them, shebangs are

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Am 20.11.20 um 11:01 schrieb Paul Moore: > 1. Add the ability for zipapp to prepend a launcher for Windows, so > zipapps can be built that "run natively" on Windows (Unix and MacOS > don't need this, because for them, shebangs are handled by the OS, not > by the language runtime). It *might* be

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Hi, > What do you think of adding PyInstaller as an official > part of CPython? Among the different native exports > options, PyInstaller holds a nice track of clean delivery. PyInstaller maintainer here. IMHO this is not a good idea. I see no benefit for either the stdlib nor for PyInstaller.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings, Finally  What about native executables (without PyInstaller)? Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://www.github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ Mauritius sent from gmail client on Android, that's why the signature is so ugly. On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 15:30 Hartmut Goebel, wrote: >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 22 Nov 2020, at 01:01, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 21/11/20 3:59 pm, Christopher Barker wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 4:18 PM Greg Ewing > With venvs, it seems like it should be possible to have a very >>simple tool that just packages up everything in your venv. > > >> conda is

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 22Nov2020 13:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:56:01PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: >> On 21Nov2020 17:54, Chris Angelico wrote: >> >The range of people who (a) cannot install from PyPI and can only use >> >the stdlib, and (b) cannot deploy with a .pyz and must deploy an

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Steven D'Aprano writes: > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:56:01PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: > > They're end users[...]. I want them to copy an app to a new > > machine and be happy - drag'n'drop a single thing. I don't think there is disagreement that this is a reasonable goal. > Sure, but

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:04 PM Greg Ewing wrote: > > conda is similar -- there is even the "conda > > constructor" that will build an installer for a conda environment that > > meets your specs. But the fact is that you get a LOT of extra stuff > > along with what you need. > > My thinking is

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 12:56:01PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: > On 21Nov2020 17:54, Chris Angelico wrote: > >The range of people who (a) cannot install from PyPI and can only use > >the stdlib, and (b) cannot deploy with a .pyz and must deploy an .exe, > >is extremely narrow. In what situation

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 21Nov2020 17:54, Chris Angelico wrote: >The range of people who (a) cannot install from PyPI and can only use >the stdlib, and (b) cannot deploy with a .pyz and must deploy an .exe, >is extremely narrow. In what situation do you have to make a native >executable but cannot get a tool from PyPI

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 21/11/20 3:59 pm, Christopher Barker wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 4:18 PM Greg Ewing With venvs, it seems like it should be possible to have a very simple tool that just packages up everything in your venv. > conda is similar -- there is even the "conda constructor" that will

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 07:16:22AM -0500, Edwin Zimmerman wrote: > On 11/20/2020 11:53 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > > [snip] > > Use the simpler options until you can't use them. Then use the more > > complicated options. > Yea, use the simpler options.  This is why I have switched from Python >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/20/2020 11:53 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > [snip] > Use the simpler options until you can't use them. Then use the more > complicated options. Yea, use the simpler options.  This is why I have switched from Python to C# when writing desktop apps, simply because distributing a single exe file

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:07 PM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > > On 2020-11-20 20:53, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 3:35 PM Brendan Barnwell > > wrote: > >> > So let me ask this: In what circumstances do you think producing > >> > native > >> >executables IS a bad thing,

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Instead of adding pyInstaller, why not link with libpython as in the embedding section of the documentation? -- H On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 21:25, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > Greetings list, > > > Use the simpler options until you can't use them. Then use the more > complicated options. > >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings list, > Use the simpler options until you can't use them. Then use the more complicated options. The only thing i don't trust Mr Chris on is packaging. His technical Py views are sound and great. I have the impression that concerning packaging the view is: we can do with what we have,

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings all, > I'm as steadfastly negative about browser apps as Chris A. is about native executables. :-) I realize this is an unpopular view, but I think the browser is a terrible app platform. It provides no user-configurable widget sets, so every app looks the way the app

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-20 20:53, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 3:35 PM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > So let me ask this: In what circumstances do you think producing native >executables IS a bad thing, and in what circumstances do you think it >ISN'T a bad thing, and why do you think

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 3:35 PM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > So let me ask this: In what circumstances do you think producing > native > executables IS a bad thing, and in what circumstances do you think it > ISN'T a bad thing, and why do you think including such functionality in > the

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-20 01:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote: If that's really what you want, you probably should look at making a way to run Python apps in the browser. Everyone has an OS, everyone has a browser, GUI browsers have similar looking look-and-feels, the days when devs assumed Internet Explorer are

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-20 20:00, Chris Angelico wrote: Please. Before you rehash all my arguments back at me again, READ THE THREAD. I have never said that native executables shouldn't ever exist. I have never said that zipapp is the one true way to distribute code. I have never once hinted at the notion

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:35 PM Christopher Barker wrote: > > I'm not sure I should get involved in this, but > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:53 AM Chris Angelico wrote: >> >> Let's >> suppose that there's a vulnerability discovered in the V8 JavaScript >> interpreter (the one behind Node.js

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:20 PM Greg Ewing wrote: > On 21/11/20 3:03 am, Paul Moore wrote: > > For my own purposes, what I *actually* want is to specify a list of > > 3rd party packages ... > > I *don't* want clever logic to decide how to strip out "unused" bits. > > I concur. > > With venvs, it

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 4:18 PM Greg Ewing wrote: > On 21/11/20 3:03 am, Paul Moore wrote: > > For my own purposes, what I *actually* want is to specify a list of > > 3rd party packages ... > > I *don't* want clever logic to decide how to strip out "unused" bits. > I'm pretty sure that you can

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

I'm not sure I should get involved in this, but On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:53 AM Chris Angelico wrote: > Let's > suppose that there's a vulnerability discovered in the V8 JavaScript > interpreter (the one behind Node.js and Google Chrome and such). Does > everyone who's ever published a

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 21/11/20 3:03 am, Paul Moore wrote: For my own purposes, what I *actually* want is to specify a list of 3rd party packages ... I *don't* want clever logic to decide how to strip out "unused" bits. I concur. With venvs, it seems like it should be possible to have a very simple tool that

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 8:48 AM Greg Ewing wrote: > On 20/11/20 9:17 pm, Andrew Svetlov wrote: > > Digging into the problem more, I've figured out that PyInstaller has > > hooks > > < > https://github.com/pyinstaller/pyinstaller/tree/develop/PyInstaller/hooks> > > > for a bunch of popular

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 20 Nov 2020, at 15:03, Paul Moore wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 13:47, Greg Ewing wrote: >> >> I've seen this sort of thing in other app bundlers too, e.g. >> last time I looked py2app and py2exe had a bunch of special casing >> for various libraries. >> >> This is quite a big

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 20 Nov 2020, at 14:45, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 20/11/20 9:17 pm, Andrew Svetlov wrote: >> Digging into the problem more, I've figured out that PyInstaller has hooks >> >> for a bunch of popular libraries to

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 13:47, Greg Ewing wrote: > > I've seen this sort of thing in other app bundlers too, e.g. > last time I looked py2app and py2exe had a bunch of special casing > for various libraries. > > This is quite a big problem, IMO. It makes these tools very > flakey. > > What is it

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 20/11/20 9:17 pm, Andrew Svetlov wrote: Digging into the problem more, I've figured out that PyInstaller has hooks for a bunch of popular libraries to make them work. I've seen this sort of thing in other app

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 20 Nov 2020, at 08:13, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > > > - Some people, including me, don't think at this point this is a good idea > > to integrate PyInstaller in the Python code base. > > The maintainer of Py2App said > > > FWIW I don’t think that bundling any of these tools

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings list, While waiting to reply in full, just sharing this thread: https://github.com/linkedin/shiv/issues/32 Shipping the Interpreter with Shiv Barry Warsaw advocates PyOxidiser which ... requires rust to be installed on whoever is deploying the app. The accompanying article

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 19 Nov 2020, at 20:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: >> On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: >>> >>> Have you considered the value of using zipapp >> >>> You get all the advantages of a single runnable file, and >>> all

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 10:55, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > After the above thread I contacted a number of Zipapp-related persons > including the author of Shiv ( Loren Carvalho ) who was kind enough to reply. > Along the conversation he stated that > > > In fact, shiv itself sort of breaks a

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Greetings list, Since the thread is revolving around Zipapps, this thread might be useful: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/thread/EMP4PMT7AHUJPLYD2DN4MXKCMGDK3QSO/ The elaboration by Andrew Svetlov gives a full idea of how PyInstaller works. Not very clean for

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 01:06:11AM -0800, Brendan Barnwell wrote: > So are you suggesting that every single app should always be > distributed as source code, run by a separate interpreter that users > install separately? My system has approximately sixty gajillion[1] apps installed that

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 09:12, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:24:32PM +, Paul Moore wrote: > > > I'm not sure about an installer. To me that means integrating with > > system "installed apps" mechanisms. But I *would* support building an > > "unzip and run" style of

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:46:50PM -0800, Brendan Barnwell wrote: > Yes, that's correct. All of what you described is how ordinary apps > work. If I install a program and it has a bug or security > vulnerability, then I am affected by that vulnerability. Having a way > to install a

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 08:55, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 6:06 PM Brendan Barnwell > wrote: > > You've mentioned this objection at least twice now and I still don't > > see it having any real relevance. All kinds of programs have bugs and > > vulnerabilities.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-20 00:53, Chris Angelico wrote: So what you're saying is: "Everyone else who distributes native executables has these problems, so Python apps distributed as native executables will have these problems". Yes. Of course they will. But a Python app distributed as a .py file or a .pyz

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:24:32PM +, Paul Moore wrote: > I'm not sure about an installer. To me that means integrating with > system "installed apps" mechanisms. But I *would* support building an > "unzip and run" style of distribution. Don't zip files support self-extracting archives?

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 6:06 PM Brendan Barnwell wrote: > Yes, that's correct. All of what you described is how ordinary apps > work. If I install a program and it has a bug or security > vulnerability, then I am affected by that vulnerability. Having a way > to install a Python

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

I'm not PyInstaller user but communicated with this tool about a year ago. The story is: I'm the maintainer of multidict library and once I had a bug report like "multidict 4.7.1 causes segfault when bundled with PyInstaller". The report author said that the previous "multidict" version works

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> - Some people, including me, don't think at this point this is a good idea to integrate PyInstaller in the Python code base. The maintainer of Py2App said > FWIW I don’t think that bundling any of these tools with Python is useful at this time. Which i overlooked as it was not the maintainer

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 2020-11-19 14:32, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:22 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: On 11/19/2020 2:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: >> On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: >>> Have you considered the value of

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

I think you've missed a couple of points (important, IMHO) in your summary: - Some people, including me, don't think at this point this is a good idea to integrate PyInstaller in the Python code base. - There is room for cooperation between the PyInstaller developers (and users) and the Python

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Summary up to now: - Must ask permission to be integrated - If integrated, tied to CPython's release cycle - They can ask the PSF for grants - It would be useful to cooperate on possible changes to CPython and the packaging landscape to make it easier to write tools like this. - Consider zipapp -

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/19/20 7:04 PM, Oscar Benjamin wrote: > On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 23:13, Chris Angelico wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 10:05 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: >>> I just don't think we need to be immediately dismissive of people's >>> desire to create a platform native executable that disguises the

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/19/2020 6:24 PM, Paul Moore wrote: On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 22:55, Greg Ewing wrote: I still think it would be useful to have some kind of basic installer-creating functionality in the stdlib. Not bundling Python could be the default, or even the only option if you're that concerned

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 23:13, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 10:05 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: > > I just don't think we need to be immediately dismissive of people's > > desire to create a platform native executable that disguises the fact > > that the code is written in Python.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 20/11/20 12:24 pm, Paul Moore wrote: I'm not sure about an installer. To me that means integrating with system "installed apps" mechanisms. By "installer" I just mean something that gets installed the way users expect on that platform. On Windows that means something you run that puts the

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 10:25 AM Paul Moore wrote: > But what > you end up with is someone discovering that the file you sent with > doesn't work "because it's written in Python, not in language that writes native exes>". > The converse is someone discovering that the file you sent doesn't work

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 19Nov2020 18:03, Eric V. Smith wrote: > >On 11/19/2020 5:32 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: >>On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:22 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: >>>But even that doesn't help with the use case of wanting an executable >>>without having to install Python first. I've had need to ship an

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 22:55, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 20/11/20 11:32 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > > It's very > > tempting to think "oh, I could just make it easier for my users, and > > then they don't have to think about anything". But what happens when > > there's a security patch for Python?

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 10:05 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: > I just don't think we need to be immediately dismissive of people's > desire to create a platform native executable that disguises the fact > that the code is written in Python. > I never said it shouldn't happen. But having zipapp in the

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/19/2020 5:32 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:22 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: On 11/19/2020 2:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: Have you considered the value of using

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:57 AM Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 20/11/20 11:32 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > > It's very > > tempting to think "oh, I could just make it easier for my users, and > > then they don't have to think about anything". But what happens when > > there's a security patch for

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 20/11/20 11:32 am, Chris Angelico wrote: It's very tempting to think "oh, I could just make it easier for my users, and then they don't have to think about anything". But what happens when there's a security patch for Python? Are they going to continue to not > think about the dependency?

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:22 AM Eric V. Smith wrote: > > > On 11/19/2020 2:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: > >> On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > >>> Have you considered the value of using zipapp > >>> You get all the

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 20/11/20 8:17 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Firstly, does that matter? And secondly, what would it take to give it those additional properties? It matters because it won't look or behave like a MacOSX app to the user. An app bundle comes with metadata that specifies a bunch of things, such

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 11/19/2020 2:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: Have you considered the value of using zipapp You get all the advantages of a single runnable file, and all the advantages of NOT including

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:05:02AM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: > On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > > > >Have you considered the value of using zipapp > > >You get all the advantages of a single runnable file, and > >all the advantages of NOT including the full Python interpreter with >

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 15:03, Mathew Elman wrote: > > Perhaps there could be something in the std-lib that allowed packaging into > an executable but with some limitations, as a toy example: only supporting > the std-lib dependencies. There is some precedence for minimal > implementations

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

Perhaps there could be something in the std-lib that allowed packaging into an executable but with some limitations, as a toy example: only supporting the std-lib dependencies. There is some precedence for minimal implementations existing in std-lib and third party libraries being more capable

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On 20/11/20 12:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote: Have you considered the value of using zipapp You get all the advantages of a single runnable file, and all the advantages of NOT including the full Python interpreter with it. It won't have all the properties of an app bundle on MacOSX, though.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 8:57 PM Cameron Simpson wrote: > > Disclaimer: I'm not arguing for or against having pyinstaller or the > like in the stdlib. Probably slightly against. Anyway... > > On 19Nov2020 15:59, Chris Angelico wrote: > >Producing native executables is an attractive nuisance.

[Python-ideas] Re: Adding PyInstaller to the standard library

> On 19 Nov 2020, at 08:48, Paul Moore wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 07:42, Stéfane Fermigier wrote: > >> But cooperation between the PyInstaller team and the Python Packaging >> Authority, if this doesn't happen already, could probably help. > > It doesn't, but that is simply because

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