On 2013-12-04, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yon intuitively pointed a very important feature of "unicode".
> However, it is not necessary, this is exactly what unicode does
> (when used properly).
Unicode only provides character sets. It's not a natural language
parsing facility.
--
Neil Cerutt
On 04/12/2013 13:52, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip all the double spaced stuff]
Yon intuitively pointed a very important feature
of "unicode". However, it is not necessary, this is
exactly what unicode does (when used properly).
jmf
Presumably using unicode correctly prevents messages b
Le mardi 3 décembre 2013 15:26:45 UTC+1, Ethan Furman a écrit :
> On 12/02/2013 12:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> > On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>
> >> failures or dubious. If you believe that t
Le mardi 3 décembre 2013 06:06:26 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a écrit :
> On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> >> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six,
On 12/02/2013 12:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the r
On 2013-12-02, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests
>> being failures or dubious. If you believe that the native
>> string type should operate on code-points, then you'll think
>> that Python does the
On 03/12/2013 01:38, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Mark Lawrence wrote:
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.
"I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
goal, before this decade is out, of making Py
On 03/12/2013 04:32, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith wrote:
"I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
and having everybody be cool with unicode."
I'm cool with Unicode as long as
How would a grapheme library work? Basic cluster combination, or would
implementing other algorithms (line break, normalizing to a "canonical"
form) be necessary?
How do people use grapheme clusters in non-rendering situations? Or here's
perhaps here's a better question: does anyone know any non-l
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:32:13 +, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
>> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
>> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
>
> I'm
On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>
>>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type sho
On 12/02/2013 07:22 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
jmf is certainly a troll
No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the FSR,
which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then
continued for a year with a strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. Bu
On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith wrote:
> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever
havin
On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
jmf is certainly a troll
No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the
FSR, which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then continued for a year with a
strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. But his posts in the Unicode
handling thread
In article ,
Mark Lawrence wrote:
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
> what you can do for our language.
"I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
and havin
On 12/02/2013 02:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
... the other being a pot smoking hippy who ...
Please trim your posts. You comment a lot on people sending double-spaced
google posts -- not trimming is nearly as bad.
The above is a good example of unnecessary name calling.
I value your good p
Ned Batchelder writes:
> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy. Isn't it the
> case that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't
> be normalized down to a single code point? Characters can accept many
> accents, for example.
That's true, but doesn't affect th
On 12/2/13 5:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I c
On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal att
On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of t
On 12/2/13 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of
On 02/12/2013 21:25, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation o
On 12/02/2013 01:23 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy. Isn't it the case that
some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be normalized
down to a single code point? Characters ca
On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* ap
On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply
On 02/12/2013 21:14, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
operate on code-points,
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy. Isn't it the case that
> some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be normalized
> down to a single code point? Characters can accept many accents, for
> example.
You
On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
thing.
I think Python is doing it corr
On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
python-list. Please stop.
The attack
On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
the worst loser in the world
Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
python-list. Please stop.
--
Terry Jan Reedy, one of multiple list moderator
On 12/2/13 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 15:22, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
1) Your
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> He's quite deliberately dragged it up by using p.s. Without doubt he's the
> worst loser in the world and I'm *NOT* stopping getting at him. I find his
> behaviour, continuously and groundlessly insulting the Python core
> developers, quite
On 02/12/2013 15:22, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly
On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the
repeated requests *NO
On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.
PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the
repeated requests *NOT* to send us double spaced crap via goog
Le dimanche 1 décembre 2013 21:54:48 UTC+1, Tim Delaney a écrit :
> On 2 December 2013 07:15, wrote:
>
>
> 0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
>
>
> > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The implication of
>
> > this question is that strings should operate on graphem
On 01/12/2013 22:50, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 12/01/2013 02:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
I don't remember him [jmf] ever having a valid point, so FTR can we
have a reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano
showing that there was a regression which I flagged up here
http://bugs.python.org/is
On 12/01/2013 02:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
I don't remember him [jmf] ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano
showing that there was a regression which I flagged up here
http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. It was fixed by Serhiy
Storch
On 01/12/2013 22:29, Tim Delaney wrote:
On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence mailto:breamore...@yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:
I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there
was a regression which I fl
On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
> reference please. I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was a
> regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. It
> was fixed by Serhiy Storc
On 01/12/2013 20:54, Tim Delaney wrote:
On 2 December 2013 07:15, mailto:wxjmfa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
> (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The
implication of
> this question is that strings should operate on grapheme
On 2 December 2013 07:15, wrote:
> 0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
> > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The implication of
> > this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> > than code points. ...
> >
>
> BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a
0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
> (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The implication of
> this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> than code points. ...
>
BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
jmf
--
https://mail.pyth
30.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
(2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The implication of
this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
than code points. Python fails this test:
py> print("noe\u0308l"[::-1])
leon
>>> print(unicodedata.norma
Le dimanche 1 décembre 2013 00:07:36 UTC+1, Ned Batchelder a écrit :
> On 11/30/13 5:37 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>
> > wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> And do you know the origin of this typographical feature?
>
> >> Because, mechanically, the dot of the "i" broke too often.
>
> >>
>
> >> In
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/26/bofh_2010_episode_18/
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> What means "PFY"? The only thing I can think of is "Poor F---ing
> Yankee" :-)
In the context of the BOFH, it stands for Pimply-Faced Youth and means
BOFH's assista
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:52:48 -0600, Tim Chase wrote:
> >
> >> On 2013-12-01 00:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >>> * KELVIN SIGN versus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
> >>
> >> I should hope so ;-)
> >
> >
>
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:52:48 -0600, Tim Chase wrote:
>
>> On 2013-12-01 00:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> * KELVIN SIGN versus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
>>
>> I should hope so ;-)
>
>
> I blame my keyboard, where letters A and K are practicall
On 2013-12-01 00:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:52:48 -0600, Tim Chase wrote:
>
> > On 2013-12-01 00:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> * KELVIN SIGN versus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
> >
> > I should hope so ;-)
>
>
> I blame my keyboard, where letters A and K are practical
On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:52:48 -0600, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2013-12-01 00:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> * KELVIN SIGN versus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
>
> I should hope so ;-)
I blame my keyboard, where letters A and K are practically right next to
each other, only seven letters apart. An easy typo
On 2013-12-01 00:22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> * KELVIN SIGN versus LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A
I should hope so ;-)
-tkc
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 11:37:30 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Which makes it even sillier to have an 'ffi' character in this day and
> age, when you can simply space the characters so that they overlap.
It's in Unicode to support legacy character sets that included it[1].
There are a bunch of simil
On 11/30/13 5:37 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
And do you know the origin of this typographical feature?
Because, mechanically, the dot of the "i" broke too often.
In my opinion, a very plausible explanation.
It doesn't sound very plausible to me, because there
are a lot
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 00:37:17 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
So, who am I to argue with the people who decided that I needed to be
able to type a "PILE OF POO" character.
Blame the Japanese for that. Apparently some of the biggest users of
Unicode are the various Japanese mobi
wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
And do you know the origin of this typographical feature?
Because, mechanically, the dot of the "i" broke too often.
In my opinion, a very plausible explanation.
It doesn't sound very plausible to me, because there
are a lot more stand-alone 'i's in English text than
Le samedi 30 novembre 2013 03:08:49 UTC+1, Roy Smith a écrit :
>
>
>
> The whole idea of ligatures like fi is purely typographic. The crossbar
>
> on the "f" (at least in some fonts) runs into the dot on the "i".
>
> Likewise, the top curl on an "f" run into the serif on top of the "l"
>
On 30/11/2013 02:08, Roy Smith wrote:
In article <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com>,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
(8) What's the uppercase of "baffle" spelled with an ffl ligature?
Like most other languages, Python 3.2 fails:
py> 'baffle'.upper()
'BAfflE'
but Python 3.3 passe
On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 00:37:17 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> So, who am I to argue with the people who decided that I needed to be
> able to type a "PILE OF POO" character.
Blame the Japanese for that. Apparently some of the biggest users of
Unicode are the various Japanese mobile phone manufacturers,
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 23:00:27 -0700, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
>> I was speaking specifically of "ligatures like fi" (or, if you prefer,
>> "ligatures like ό". By which I mean those things printers invented
>> because some letter combinations look funny
On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 02:05:59 -0300, Zero Piraeus wrote:
> (I happen to think the presence of ligatures in Unicode is insane, but
> my dictator-of-the-world certificate appears to have gotten lost in the
> post, so fixing that will have to wait).
You're probably right, but we live in an insane wor
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> I was speaking specifically of "ligatures like fi" (or, if you prefer,
> "ligatures like ό". By which I mean those things printers invented
> because some letter combinations look funny when typeset as two distinct
> letters.
I think the encod
In article <529967dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com>,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > The whole idea of ligatures like fi is purely typographic.
>
> In English, that's correct. I'm not sure if we can generalise that to all
> languages that have ligatures. It also partly depends on how y
On Saturday 30 November 2013 00:23:22 Zero Piraeus did opine:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 04:21:49AM +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:08:49 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> > > The whole idea of ligatures like fi is purely typographic.
> >
> > In English, that's correct. I'm not su
:
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 04:21:49AM +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:08:49 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> > The whole idea of ligatures like fi is purely typographic.
>
> In English, that's correct. I'm not sure if we can generalise that to
> all languages that have ligatures. I
In article <529967dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com>,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> You edited my text to remove the ligature? That's... unfortunate.
It was un-ligated by the time it reached me.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:08:49 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com>,
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> (8) What's the uppercase of "baffle" spelled with an ffl ligature?
>>
>> Like most other languages, Python 3.2 fails:
>>
>> py> 'baffle'.upper
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:28:47 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> > I would certainly expect, x.lower() == x.upper().lower(), to be
True for
> > all values of x over the set of valid unicode codepoints.
Having
>
In article ,
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> > I would certainly expect, x.lower() == x.upper().lower(), to be True for
> > all values of x over the set of valid unicode codepoints. Having
> > u"\uFB04".upper() ==> "FFL" breaks that. I would also ex
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> I would certainly expect, x.lower() == x.upper().lower(), to be True for
> all values of x over the set of valid unicode codepoints. Having
> u"\uFB04".upper() ==> "FFL" breaks that. I would also expect len(x) ==
> len(x.upper()) to be True.
T
In article <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com>,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> (8) What's the uppercase of "baffle" spelled with an ffl ligature?
>
> Like most other languages, Python 3.2 fails:
>
> py> 'baffle'.upper()
> 'BAfflE'
>
> but Python 3.3 passes:
>
> py> 'baffle'.upper
On 30/11/2013 00:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
(5) What is the length of "😸😾"?
Both characters U+1F636 (GRINNING CAT FACE WITH SMILING EYES) and U+1F63E
(POUTING CAT FACE) are outside the Basic Multilingual Plane, which means
they require more than two bytes each. Most programming languages using
There's a recent blog post complaining about the lousy support for
Unicode text in most programming languages:
http://mortoray.com/2013/11/27/the-string-type-is-broken/
The author, Mortoray, gives nine basic tests to understand how well the
string type in a language works. The first four involv
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