Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-17 Thread Stephens, Owen
> > Unless something has changed recently, it seems to be the trend in > several of the more recent projects. For example, VuFind, Koha, > Evergreen, at least by default or in their demo configurations, use the > 1xx heading rather than 245$c statement of responsibility, like > Worldcat.org as desc

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-15 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Bryan: You bring up some good points here, but my amazement wasn't prompted by the dumbing-down part, but the subsequent re-creation of statements of responsibility by algorithmic means. This suggests to me less a direction than a deep ambivalence about the functionality desired for WorldCat. D

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Karen Coyle
Mary Mastraccio wrote: The subfield $0 only addresses this in a small way. It allows linking bib headings to authority records and allows linking thesauri and could be used to link name and title authority records, but it does not address other features of the linking of name and title authority

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Bryan Baldus
On Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:13 PM, Diane I. Hillmann wrote: >This seems so counterintuitive--libraries have been complaining for years that >their vendors have made so little use of the richness of MARC records, and >here's OCLC building systems that use even less. Unless something has ch

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Elizabeth O'Keefe
Diane:   I actually think that OCLC has done a very good job integrating and making copy-specific information accessible on the Web. We were worried about making the transition from RLIN, with its individual records for each institution's copy of an item, to WorldCat, with its master record s

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
> > OS:As an example, I cannot see how MARC could support a linked data > > approach to information stored in fixed fields - one of the places > where > > it would benefit from it. > > MM: Systems already use MARC fixed fields information to display icons > related to format and to refine searches

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Mary Mastraccio
> Mary Mastraccio wrote: > > > > It might be determined that the "Works" field in the parent > record > > should only have the control number of the child name record... I strongly suspect that > the > > various language translations of a title could/should really be in the > one > > NameTitle/Chil

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Mary Mastraccio
Owen Stephen: > I think that in this case I am talking about a weakness in MARC21 rather > than AACR2. Possibly it is the implementation - but isn't MARC21 an > implementation of MARC? MM: At one level MARC21 is an implementation of MARC but what I am thinking of is the library systems implementat

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
> > A weakness of MARC21 is that it doesn't make use of the reference to > > the Authority record into the metadata record - we rely on 'literals' too > > much - making it more difficult to ensure consistency, make changes, > > or draw into our indexing information not held directly in the MARC > >

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Mary Mastraccio wrote: I think the child/title authority record is needed rather than just using the "works" information to allow for name/title headings in bib record displays. It might be determined that the "Works" field in the parent record should only have the control number of the child na

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Mary Mastraccio
Mary Mastraccio wrote: > > > ..[modifications in] the construction of authority data > > for automated management are long overdue. Too much of the data and > rules > > are designed for human intervention. ... A name authority record should have as much data as > possible > > on a person. Ideally,

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
AZ t: +44 (0)20 7594 8829 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weinheimer Jim Sent: 14 November 2008 12:56 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Owen Steph

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Owen Stephens wrote:   > The question of 'feasibility' takes us beyond a question of whether it > is 'worth it' to whether it can be done. What the report says is that > the authors do not believe it is possible to achieve consistency with > metadata of judgement except within "a tightly controlled

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
- > From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Tribby > Sent: 12 November 2008 16:20 > To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA > Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA > > > The question Karen uses for an e

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
Jim wrote: They use different terminology ("consistency of judgemental metadata") but I still read it as: "Given the expense and nature of this type of content, we believe it is not feasible to expect consistency with regard to metadata of judgement, except perhaps where it occurs in a tightly cont

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-14 Thread Stephens, Owen
> Three years or so ago I thought, "finally the significance of what > authority data can do for improving data management is understood" but more > recently it seems to have been lost in the dust. I would add to Bernhard and > Jim's comments that the rules governing the construction of authority d

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-13 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Adam: Thanks for pointing this out--I've had little experience using WorldCat, and wasn't really aware of these particular problems. This seems so counterintuitive--libraries have been complaining for years that their vendors have made so little use of the richness of MARC records, and here's OC

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-13 Thread Karen Coyle
J. McRee Elrod wrote: Karen said: As for managing multiple vocabularies, there shouldn't be a big difference between managing one or two or a dozen vocabularies ... By "vocabularies" do you mean "thesauri"? If so, why not use that more precise term? If there is a difference, what is that

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-13 Thread Elizabeth O'Keefe
>In displays such as above, the designers of WorldCat decided (god >knows why!) to remove any and all additions to names such as fuller >well-known author Henry Miller is the same as the medical writer or >composer of The saucy little widow are left to figure that out some >other way. Those stat

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA: H. Miller in WorldCat

2008-11-13 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Adam L. Schiff wrote: Yet still, if you insist to be interested in none else than "Miller, Henry - 1891-1980", then as of yet there are only library catalogs or WorldCat to turn to. This ought to change, no? Actually, you need to strike mention of WorldCat above, as it makes no use of authori

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-13 Thread Weinheimer Jim
J. McRee (Mac) Elrod wrote: > MARC handles multiple subject thesauri for our multiple clients quite > handily, with 2nd indicators and $2, allowing us to provide LCSH, RVM, > MeSH, etc. as wished.  The same applies to 050 LCC, 055 FCPS or Moys, > 060 NLMC, 080 UDC, and 082 DDC. While I basically

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-13 Thread Adam L. Schiff
Yet still, if you insist to be interested in none else than "Miller, Henry - 1891-1980", then as of yet there are only library catalogs or WorldCat to turn to. This ought to change, no? B.Eversberg Actually, you need to strike mention of WorldCat above, as it makes no use of authorized forms o

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Mike Tribby wrote: that search would find not only every book by the author of Tropic of Cancer, but every book by every author named Henry Miller... Well, even today, if you enter Henry Miller into Google Scholar, you get 655.000 hits including all documents by not just any Henry Miller but

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Karen said: >As for managing multiple vocabularies, there shouldn't be a big >difference between managing one or two or a dozen vocabularies ... By "vocabularies" do you mean "thesauri"? If so, why not use that more precise term? If there is a difference, what is that difference? I'm still spe

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Karen Coyle
D. Brooking wrote: OCLC does not yet have a way to make institutional bib records (i.e., the locally customized versions of master records) available for search and discovery. Though they are pursuing ways of making some kinds of local data available in local holdings records, this solution will

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread D. Brooking
I was struck by one point Diane made about the future: "But consistency in terms of what terms we choose to assign is not likely to be as important in future as it has been in our current sharing environment (which assumes that there is a "master record" that all will use in the same way in a

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
I think the report and this discussion about consistency is really important for us all to think about. One of the ideas we'll need to get used to as we contemplate changes to come is that data will come from a variety of sources, and not all of those sources will be have the same view of what's

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Karen Coyle
Mike, I don't understand why you think this bypasses authority control. You can have authority control outside of WorldCat. As a matter of fact, if your headings are authority-controlled today, they are authority controlled no matter where your record is (and many library records are not in WorldC

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Mike Tribby
The question Karen uses for an example ("how many books did Henry Miller write while he lived in France?") is an interesting choice. Assuming that linking "from the mention of an author anywhere on the web to books held by libraries. Directly. Not going through WorldCat" would bypass authority

Re: [RDA-L] Specifics--[RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Laurence Creider
Karen, Thank you for the references. I do not expect or particularly want a one-to-one replacement for AACR2 and MARC. What I think we must have is something that incorporates or "rolls over" the data we have that use those standards without losing what they have contributed to bibliographic con

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Karen Coyle schrieb: I'm absolutely with you where you say "We have to quit thinking that catalog = library", of course. But it is the catalog that this forum is about. No, this forum is about Resource Description and Access. > ... Which in turn is widely held to be the new code to replace AA

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Karen Coyle
Thanks, Bernhard. Bernhard Eversberg wrote: Which in turn is widely held to be the new code to replace AACR2. Yes, but I do think they changed it from AACR3 to RDA to show that it's not JUST a new version of the previous rules. Another thing we need to clarify, however, is how the rules on ho

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Mary Mastraccio
Bernhard Eversberg wrote: > Just one more thing: To achieve what you envision, it will I think have > to be a top priority that authority data (names and subject headings) > become openly and freely available for easy inclusion and swift use in > metadata. Jim Weinheimer wrote: >"I think another c

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Karen Coyle wrote: > I interpret this statement differently than you do. Nowhere does the > report say that consistency is not "worthwhile" -- this is a study of > consistency, not the value of subject headings. Their conclusion, as you > quote above, is that consistency is unlikely across a broad

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Karen Coyle
Bernhard Eversberg wrote: I'm absolutely with you where you say "We have to quit thinking that catalog = library", of course. But it is the catalog that this forum is about. No, this forum is about Resource Description and Access. And my argument is that we should see resource description and a

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Karen Coyle
Weinheimer Jim wrote: This report concludes that consistency is not worthwhile, and I think this paragraph (p. 17) sums it up quite well. "At the other end of the spectrum is metadata of judgement. In traditional cataloguing practice this is often called analytic cataloguing; it involves the desc

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Karen Coyle wrote: We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their improvement via RDA and FRBR. Bernard, I feel like you're advocating an answer to a question that hasn't been clarified. In the second

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-12 Thread Weinheimer Jim
First, many thanks to Karen for pointing out this highly important document. It seems as if everything libraries do is under attack now. Consistency has always been at the very heart of the library catalog, and even it is being questioned. This report concludes that consistency is not worthwhile

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
J. McRee Elrod wrote: Karen quoted: "This study has been briefed to investigate ... A difficulty I have in reading the new writing on metadata is formulations like the above, which makes it difficult to focus on the substance of what is being said. I think that's more of an issue of Britis

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Karen quoted: >"This study has been briefed to investigate ... A difficulty I have in reading the new writing on metadata is formulations like the above, which makes it difficult to focus on the substance of what is being said. I assume what is meant is that: "Those conducting this study have be

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Stephen Hearn
Diane I. Hillmann wrote: It's not a miracle, it's hard work, but this view does not assume that humans are the only (and not even always the best) metadata creators. I think the report that Karen distributed as part of a different thread is relevant here: http://ie-repository.jisc.ac.uk/256/. Gra

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Karen Coyle
Laurence Creider wrote: I have read the FA (and some of the report referred to) and could not find evidence of what you say. Could you please be more specific about what you mean? It isn't what *I* mean, it's what the article means. First, I think it is a great idea to study the effect of consi

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Karen Coyle
Laurence S. Creider wrote: First, there is the question of specifics. I hear words like "imagine" or references to current experiments. Those of us who have lived with computers for a while know how big the gap between vision and reality can be. The devil is indeed in the details. So, I would

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Laurence: A small point, but the "Get off Autocat" was from a presentation I did recently, and the context was discussion about how to learn and participate in discussions about the future. The complaint I often hear is that there's already too much coming into their inbox, and my point was that

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Laurence S. Creider
As I have followed the posts on this thread over the last few days and, indeed, as I have read posts over the past several months, I find there is a relatively small group of individuals who have moved the discussion away from RDA to the future of libraries and cataloging. Some of this is thought-

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Miksa, Shawne
FOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Shawne: You're right, when I hear "cataloging" I think "traditional cataloging"--one reason why I always use the later term when I mean traditional cataloging, and something else, say, "metadata creation

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Laurence S. Creider
John Myers has done an excellent job of summarizing why we need to pay attention to developments beyond MARC and XML and why we need to worry about getting our records out for others to use. In the long run, this is a matter of survival. Karen Coyle refreshingly admits how far there is to go befo

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Riley, Jenn
On 11/11/08 4:04 AM, "Weinheimer Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (snip) > For example, the fact that Google stopped development of OAI-PMH (using only > DC!) in favor of XML Topic Maps is a huge development. Imagine that you are a > publisher, or any other producer of non-MARC records (i.e. anybo

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
John, you've absolutely gotten it, and I like your metaphors, too. :-) Diane Myers, John F. wrote: The issue is that we hide our catalog records in our catalogs. While the public face of those catalogs is a WebOPAC, this is only an html based interface to the catalog data, an interface that

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Shawne: You're right, when I hear "cataloging" I think "traditional cataloging"--one reason why I always use the later term when I mean traditional cataloging, and something else, say, "metadata creation" when I mean something else. I'm glad you're not just teaching traditional cataloging, but m

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Karen Coyle
Stephen Hearn wrote: I just did a Google Books search on "Gone with the wind." I clicked on the first hit, and was given a brief bibliographic display and a link at the right to "Find this book in a library." I clicked that and was taken to WorldCat, which provided a list of copies in libraries c

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Laurence Creider
I have read the FA (and some of the report referred to) and could not find evidence of what you say. Could you please be more specific about what you mean? Laurence S. Creider Special Collections Librarian New Mexico State University Las Cruces, NM 88003 Work: 575-646-7227 Fax: 575-646-7477 [EM

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Stephen Hearn
Robin Mize wrote: I agree that we need to provide a seamless interface for the user, because the user doesn't want a lot of roadblocks on their path to information. Myers, John F. wrote: The issue is that we hide our catalog records in our catalogs. While the public face of those catalogs is a

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Karen Coyle
Stephen Hearn wrote: To me the hard part is ensuring consistency, first of terminology, but more fundamentally of granularity and categorization. The great virtue of MARC/AACR/LSCH cataloging is that it is as consistent as it is across many catalogs and institutions and disciplines. There is act

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Karen Coyle
Stephen Hearn wrote: As for catalogs--when I use my libraries' catalogs (and I do--the Twin Cities library systems all recognize me as a user), it's not mainly bibliographic information that I'm looking for. I want to know what each collection includes, and whether a copy is available, and how l

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-11 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Shawne Miksa wrote: > You write: "Bibliographic data available freely on the web can be combined > and presented in different ways, available to those who might want to try new > aggregations and methods of discovery and presentation." > > In your view, where does that bibliographic data originate?

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Robin Mize
It seems to me that there's another elephant in the room where we're talking about making catalog records available to the public, and that's the fact that most libraries depend on services from which they buy their metadata, most notably at this point one such as OCLC although there are a lot of

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Karen Coyle
Myers, John F. wrote: (With apologies if I've wandered somewhat from the initial premise or if I've misrepresented Diane.) From my point of view, you are "spot on" as the Brits say. I think a lot of what flusters people is that there isn't a way today to lay out a perfectly formed plan with

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Myers, John F.
The issue is that we hide our catalog records in our catalogs. While the public face of those catalogs is a WebOPAC, this is only an html based interface to the catalog data, an interface that is inherently self contained. The actual records are not searchable via a search originating on the o

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Stephen Hearn said: >To me the hard part is ensuring consistency ... >The natural tendency of thinking communities is to divide >and redivide and to use language, categories ... Amen. I've just taken over as Archivist for an institution in which this happened. The institutiona's administrative

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Stephen Hearn
To me the hard part is ensuring consistency, first of terminology, but more fundamentally of granularity and categorization. The great virtue of MARC/AACR/LSCH cataloging is that it is as consistent as it is across many catalogs and institutions and disciplines. That's not a natural development. T

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Miksa, Shawne
I like fussing. This idea of "hoarding" and "hiding" is difficult to understand as it makes it sound as if librarians, and especially those who catalog, are cave dwellers who can't speak. I would also ask you to not generalize all cataloging courses as traditional. We've been incorporating "non

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
of Information, Library Science, and Technology University of North Texas email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://courses.unt.edu/smiksa/index.htm office 940-565-3560 fax 940-565-3101 ** From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [EMAIL PROT

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Thank you, Karen, for expressing this so succinctly (which I obviously haven't been able to do). And let me just point out that we have to be able to get that data out on the web without an intermediary that wants to control all our interactions with the outside world (if you don't know who I'm t

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Miksa, Shawne
*** From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:08 PM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Karen Coyle
Miksa, Shawne wrote: Karen wrote: "We have to quit thinking that catalog = library, and start looking at a wider range of services that we can (and do) provide." Whoa! Stop! This would imply that 'we' have all been thinking this--as if we all have tunnel vision. I don't think that is true at

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Ed Jones
- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Matei Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:00 AM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA > -Original Message- > From: Resource Descripti

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Karen Coyle wrote: > I think we have made a mistake in focusing on the catalog as the main > user tool. Our model for user service should instead be the reference > service. The catalog is inherently about the library's holdings, already > a narrow scope. In reference service, the user comes in wi

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Dan Matei
> -Original Message- > From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description > and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Weinheimer Jim > Sent: 10 noiembrie 2008 10:25 > To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA > Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA D

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Miksa, Shawne
Karen wrote: "We have to quit thinking that catalog = library, and start looking at a wider range of services that we can (and do) provide." Whoa! Stop! This would imply that 'we' have all been thinking this--as if we all have tunnel vision. I don't think that is true at all. Obviously the libr

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Marjorie Bloss
I have been finding your comments on this topic fascinating. Wearing my library educator's hat... I have been compiling your comments on "Libraries, society and RDA" into a Word document. I'll be teaching a course on cataloging in the spring in Dominican University's GSLIS program. I plan to

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Karen Coyle
Weinheimer Jim wrote: > Bernhard Eversberg wrote: > > > > We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better > > solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their > > improvement via RDA and FRBR. Another consideration that we should not overlook is that ca

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-10 Thread Weinheimer Jim
> Bernhard Eversberg wrote: > > > > We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better > > solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their > > improvement via RDA and FRBR. Another consideration that we should not overlook is that catalogs serve not only t

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Karen Coyle
Bernhard Eversberg wrote: We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their improvement via RDA and FRBR. Bernard, I feel like you're advocating an answer to a question that hasn't been clarified. In your

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Miksa, Shawne
That everyone talks as if the only group of users are young people or young students really angers me. I would agree they are the most predominant, evaluated group of users, but why do we constantly talk as if they are the only group? Last year I attended a two-day visioning task force concerni

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
When we did some user interviews lately, we found that not all young users act like the stereotype "young users" act, and some older users, even faculty researchers, DO act like the stereotype of "young users". I think the goals people are claiming under the mantle of "young users" really are app

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA - everyone knows enough

2008-11-07 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Mike Tribby wrote: > "a report from Educause that says that students think they already > know how to search", ... _we_ felt like that, too, when there were far fewer information resources to search. This may just indicate a truism of youth, Yes, but then there's also the more general observa

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Mike Tribby
, November 07, 2008 7:40 AM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Bernhard Eversberg wrote: > We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better > solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their > improvement

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Bernhard Eversberg wrote: > We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better > solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their > improvement via RDA and FRBR. >  > Here's an attempt: >  > http://www.allegro-c.de/formate/wlc.htm >  > trying to say things in

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-07 Thread Bernhard Eversberg
Jim Weinheimer wrote: Why can't we say what RDA and FRBR are a solution to, and how their introduction will make this huge difference to our users? We might first have to say why library catalogs are still a better solution to many problems of searching, before we begin advocating their improv

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-05 Thread Weinheimer Jim
Karen Coyle wrote: > Quality does matter. So does efficiency and a consciousness that we > can't possibly afford to give full attention to every item. Some choices > have to be made, and, as the LC Future of Bib Control report pointed > out, we have no measurements of usefulness or success that wo

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Kevin M. Randall
Jim Weinheimer wrote: > "In defense of the Chicken Littles of the World" I really enjoyed reading this post. A few comments... > I guess I'm worried about something similar happening today. If we > focus primarily on speed, throughput and bean counting at the expense > of "quality," I think we

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread William Denton
On 4 November 2008, Miksa, Shawne wrote: Have library, have catalog. Have Web, catalog part of it--a doorway or alcove or hallway to another room. Libraries still have 'collections'--this has not changed. Call it a digital library--whatever---that is a guide to it what it contains, records/repr

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Karen said: >the "half" that we are missing in libraries is often the most unique >elements of our collection... Both digitalization of unique resources and AARC2/MARC21 records describing them are giving increased access to such materials in library collections. What new impetus will new rules

Re: [RDA-L] [Possible Spam] Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Robin Mize
ht economic climate. In > the > > absence of a current RDA draft, this seemed a useful and prudent > > activity. > > > > Ed > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access > > [mailto:[EMAI

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Karen Coyle
Weinheimer Jim wrote: This has happened before in every library, I am sure. I remember that in one library where I worked, I ran across an old cataloging procedure (for the card catalog) where non-Roman catalogers were directed for a period of about 10 years (I believe) to not add any subject c

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Weinheimer Jim
ty. > > > > Ed > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Diane I. Hillmann > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:37 PM > > To: RDA-L@INFOSE

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
lto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Diane I. Hillmann Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:37 PM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Shawne: Thanks for your note. I'm not sure I was aiming for eloquence, just hoping to shift the conversation a bit, away fr

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-04 Thread Miksa, Shawne
ber 02, 2008 9:21 PM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Shawne: It wasn't too long ago that I was told that I couldn't catalog web resources because we didn't "own" them. I have to say that redefining the catalog yet again isn

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-03 Thread Ed Jones
ccess / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Diane I. Hillmann Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:37 PM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Shawne: Thanks for your note. I'm not sure I was aiming for eloquence, just hopin

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-03 Thread Jim Weinheimer
Casey Mullin wrote: I am encouraged at where this thread has turned this evening... Shawne's comments about continuing to create catalogs are apt. What I've come to realize in the past few years is that it's not the fundamental intellectual activity of catalogers which is in danger of obsolescenc

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-03 Thread Jim Weinheimer
J. McRee (Mac) Elrod ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >What remains constant is that the materials be selected, described and >given subject descriptors which facilitate their retrieval. >The tasks of selecting and organizing materials which match the >mission of the institution have not changed. Abso

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Shawne said: >One of the questions I often get in class from my cataloging students >is "What are the parameters of a library catalog?" ... The catalogues for which we provide records have morphed, since 1979, from giving patron access to information and recreational resources within the institut

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Casey Mullin
se of progress. So that's my sleepy Sunday night rant. Thanks for reading. Casey Alan MullinMLS CandidateSchool of Library and Information ScienceMetadata Assistant - Variations3 Digital Music LibraryIndiana University > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:27:09 -0600> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Shawne: It wasn't too long ago that I was told that I couldn't catalog web resources because we didn't "own" them. I have to say that redefining the catalog yet again isn't something I'm all that interested in doing--particularly since that definition isn't likely to ever be as close to consensu

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Miksa, Shawne
One of the questions I often get in class from my cataloging students is "What are the parameters of a library catalog?" in this day and age when we are expected to provide access not only to a library's particular collection but, seemingly, everything else "out there." Are we still creating ca

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Shawne: Thanks for your note. I'm not sure I was aiming for eloquence, just hoping to shift the conversation a bit, away from the tendency to a Chicken Little-style response ... Your last question worries me--are we still creating catalogs, or are we trying (finally) to participate, as the expe

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Miksa, Shawne
Diane, thank you for such an eloquent posting. I haven't read the whole thread but I'm glad to see talk of serving users' needs. If would seem premature to postpone RDA when we don't yet have all the "data" in on what it will look like and how it may or may not allow us to provide a better servi

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-11-02 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Ed Jones wrote: [snip] My main concern at present is that in the current economic environment there will be increasing pressure at all levels to abandon RDA—or at best to postpone its implementation—if it entails any substantial investment by those who would otherwise implement it. With state an

Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA

2008-10-30 Thread Ed Jones
Diego) From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weinheimer Jim Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:01 AM To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA > Over the past few dec

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