RE: Bible classes in elementary schools

The community apparently raises $500,000 a year for the course – that should cover attorney’s fees. Nice irony if the county and the donors help support the Freedom From Religion Foundation. *** Paul Finkelman John E. Murray Visiting Professor of Law University of Pittsburgh Sc

RE: Bible classes in elementary schools

Exactly. Of course Doug is right. And this why it should be taught in Sunday School and not public school. The answer is obvious. One question would be what are the qualifications for the teacher to teach the course? *** Paul Finkelman John E. Murray Visiting Professor of Law

RE: Bible classes in elementary schools

Hard to imagine; I like this juxtaposition. Not religion – just history followed by “proclaiming” God’s word “is a good thing.” The story does not indicate if there are any prayers at these sessions. “Supporters are adamant that the weekly class is an elective meant to explore the history a

Re: Christian convert's claim that church broke confidentiality promise and thus exposed him to attack for apostasy in Syria

Seems to me that if the Church publicizes its conversions then the church feels it is getting a benefit from converting people. Also conversion is an important aspect of all evangelical Christian churches. In a sense they exist to "save souls" -- hence their missionary activities at home and

The Charlotte City Ordinance and Religious Freedom

I think David has it exactly right. If the law says you cannot use the mens room with a birth certificate saying you are male then you are breaking the law. If there is no enforcement mechanism, then what sort of law is it? And if you a transwoman, who is tall and maybe have residual traits o

Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety benefits

exclude religion from all these benefits? Conversely, if the government can offer such benefits, it seems to me that this is because the prohibition is on taking money to support religion because of its religiosity, rather than to offer religious people and institutions equal acce

Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety benefits

cess to broadly available benefits. Eugene From: Finkelman, Paul [mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 12:28 PM To: Volokh, Eugene ; Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety be

Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety benefits

And recruitment of new members. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device -- Original message-- From: Alan E Brownstein Date: Sun, Jan 17, 2016 2:38 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics; Cc: Subject:Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety benefits It might als

Re: Excluding religious institutions from public safety benefits

Doesnt it depend on how much resurfacing was needed. But is that the issue. If the giv money is supporting and enhancing sectarian worship, does it matter how much. As Madison noted in his remonstrance, it isd objectionable to take one penny of a citizens money to support any church or religi

Re: RE: What's happening in the Kim Davis case

* Paul Finkelman Senior Fellow Penn Program on Democracy, Citizenship, and Constitutionalism University of Pennsylvania and Scholar-in-Residence National Constitution Center Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 518-439-7296 (p) 518-605-0296 (c) paul.finkel

RE: Kim Davis announcement about what she'll do at work today

Fair enough, but going forward does everyone in this County have to go through the courts in the future to have their marriage secured? And what happens with the next Kim Davis is in some other agency, probate, the agency that deals with child custody, or a hospital, and says “no valid marriage

RE: Assessing a Proposed Solution to the KY Case

If she orders Mason not to issue the licenses, and she refused; can she fire Mason? Paul Finkelman Senior Fellow, University of Pennsylvania Program on Democracy, Citizenship, and Constitutionalism 518-439-7296 (w) 518-605-0296 (c) paul.finkel...@yahoo.com www.pa

RE: What's happening in the Kim Davis case

The legal analysis in all of our posts have been mostly based on “good faith” legal arguments. But we try to figure it out as Ms. Davis’s arguments and claims seem to evolve. Most of the people on this list assume that a reasonable accommodation is possible to protect her “religious freedom.”

RE: What's happening in KY?

As Marty says: “. . . until she refuses to allow the documents to be issued to the next couple that appears)?” Martyrdom is a strong tradition among some Christians so she may be planning for the long haul, or until it becomes old news and is boring and no one cares that she is in jail. Paul

RE: Question about the Kentucky County Clerk controversy

But, Eugene, isn't your bearded sheriff different from a clerk refusing to do hers job. The analogy would not be to the beard but to the pacifist sheriff who refuses to carry a gun, or the animal rights sheriff who refuses to use police dogs, or even the person who believes saving the environme

Re: Colorado Cakeshop decision

Eugene From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu> [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:32 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Colorado Cakeshop deci

Re: Colorado Cakeshop decision

what is "magical" about common carrier is that if you go into the business of being a common carrier, and you get a license from the state to operate your business, you have agreed to accept all who come forward with the fee and behave properly. So the restaurant can require shoes and shirts,

Re: Colorado Cakeshop decision

Eugene: I am trying to figure out what would be the "inappropriate" use of the Deli's sandwiches? Is it feeding doctors who perform abortion? Are you arguing that the pillow case maker can refuse to sell pillow cases to members of the KKK who use them for pillows? That is, can your refuse

RE: Ireland

Dear Michael: when children have children it is a bad thing. That is true whether they are married or merely very young and forced into marriages. But out-of-Wedlock births is a very broad category. When my adult gay friends had children, twelve years ago, they could not be legally married bec

law suit on behalf of Jesus

Someone just send me this; it seems like it might be real, but does anyone know? Can the plaintiff bring the suit on behalf of Jesus or G-d without a power of attorney signed by one or both? http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/nebraska_woman_sues_all_homosexuals_in_federal_cou

RE: Amazing what Hobby Lobby has wrought

Derek is offering exactly the kind of argument that as used to support segregation or the rights of people not to have to serve blacks, it that is what they chose to do. But, even if Derek's "solution" (to allow discrimination) is approved, where does ti end? Doug (in an earlier post) wants to

RE: Amazing what Hobby Lobby has wrought

cott Distinguished Professor of Law University of Virginia Law School 580 Massie Road Charlottesville, VA 22903 434-243-8546 From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 2:27 PM To: Law &

RE: Amazing what Hobby Lobby has wrought

Both are immutable characteristics. In that way they are very much alike. Indeed, while one can choose to convert to a new religion, people do not "choose" to be gay, just as they don't choose to be white or black or some other race. * Paul Fink

RE: Amazing what Hobby Lobby has wrought

But does this mean that "religion is not protected? Will we see claims that members of certain faiths do not want to hire (or even serve) members of other faiths? I think the language of the Indiana law and some of these other laws might allow this. *

RE: Amazing what Hobby Lobby has wrought

Doug: I appreciate your analysis of the cases. Case law will not limit private action if the actors think the law allows them to discriminate. But, it seems to me that the Indiana law encourages the exact sort of behavior that has not held up in court. Does it really matter if months or years

RE: The racist prostitute hypothetical

Brad: Tell me why is the wedding cake which I pick up at your bakery and take to my wedding any different than the rental tux I pick up, the flowers I bring to the wedding, or the limo I rent. Or, if I buy the car for the wedding party, how is the cake any different than the car I bought at th

RE: The racist prostitute hypothetical

One thought is this: How would Eugene's hypothetical differ from a nurse, doctor, dentist, or undertaker, who said "I don't like touching people of this or that race" and so I will not do my job with them? I am not sure what the difference, once we get over any issues we have about the legalit

RE: Interposition on Same Sex Marriage

in the Ten Commandments case he testified (as the defendant in a civil suit he was called by the plaintiff) that the 1st Amendment did not apply t the state of Alabama. His attorneys argued this in their appeal to the 11th circuit. Then he defied a direct order of the US Dist. Court to take hi

RE: Homeschooling, vaccinations, and Yoder

ainly may be the case that there is such a strong causal link, but I’d just like to hear a little more about it. Eugene From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 9:27 PM To: d...@

RE: Vaccine objectors

one thought on Marty's point 1. The number of children being home schooled is huge. If the vehicle for requiring immunization is schooling then many people will avoid the mandate by opting out of schools. Virtually unregulated home schooling is one of the consequences of Yoder. **

RE: Vaccine objectors

One issue not raised hete is the vast number on unvaccinatef immigrants which means the populstion of unvaccinated is constantly changing and growing Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Perry Dane Date:02/01/2015 6:43 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Law

RE: Bishop John Hughes, Protestant Public Schools in New York, and Political Activity by Clergy

I have written a bit about this in my biography of Millard Fillmore --who was totally insensitive to issues involving Catholics, Jews, and blacks -- a sort of equal opportunity bigot. If was state wide, not just NYC. Fillmore lost the NY Gov. race in 1844 in part over this issue -- to the ext

Sorry for the Double Posting.

Sorry for the double posting. Apparently the list-serve copy of my posting went to spam. What does that tell us about spam filters when they reject your own postings! Paul Finkelman Scholar-in-Residence National Constitution Center From: Marc Stern To: "reli

Science Lecture

[I posted this earlier but it does not look llike it was put up so I am resending it.] Obviously yes, and yes. How could it be otherwise? If it is "no" or no and no, then we have lost all ability to have free intellectual inquiry. It would not be proper (I am not sure if it would be constitu

RE: Practice experience of Justices

The very fact that members of this list have to search around to find any experience with "people" for the members of the court to find a year here or there, or even a few years here or there, underscores how totally removed from mainstream life and law practice the Justices are.

RE: Is Discussion of Justices' Religion "Off Limits"?

ppointed to the federal judiciary. Sandy Sent from my iPhone On Jul 11, 2014, at 1:33 PM, "Finkelman, Paul" mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu>> wrote: Religion is not the only aspect of the Justices that should be considered. I would argue that this Court is dramatically odd

RE: Is Discussion of Justices' Religion "Off Limits"?

Religion is not the only aspect of the Justices that should be considered. I would argue that this Court is dramatically odd in many ways. Except for Thomas all of the Justices come from the northeast or California (or in Breyer's case both). There is no one from the midwest (although Roberts

RE: On a different strand of the seamless web

I will admit I may have put words into Doug's mouth, and if so I apologize. However, whether it is Doug or Justice Alito, it strikes me that the point is the same. A for-profit corporation cannot have a "soul" or a religion. It is not a person in that sense and I doubt any religion would say

RE: Cert. denied in Elmbrook Schools

Scalia's dissent is interesting I one way, at least. When I was growing up Catholic children were not allowed to visit synagogues (this was in remote upstate New York) without permission of the local bishop. That has all changed now, I know. but it would have been true when Scalia was growing

case book needed

Does anyone know if there is a casebook out there -- or has anyone taught and can share materials -- for a course on comparative religion and law. I have to teach one this summer -- comparing US to EU law (and if I can other countries). * Paul

religious disagreement and commerce

I think it is entirely possible that some religious businesses might have problems with certain possible businesses. Consider this: Same sex couple is married in a Reform Temple or a Conservative Synagogue. I am not sure where the Conservative movement stands on this, but I know many conser

RE: The pain of discrimination and the role of government

to gays" propose to identify people who presumably do not begin every business transaction by announcing "I'm gay!" Unless said customers are on their part deliberately looking for excuses for litigation. But THAT couldn't happen, of course. - Original Message -

RE: The pain of discrimination and the role of government

Greg's posting strikes me as a little of the mark in a few ways. The Friday night sale is not at issue. You can close your business whenever you want (it is the opposite of the forced Sunday closing). However, the Florist who refused to provide flowers for a same sex commitment ceremony (and th

War on Drug Symposium

The War on Drugs has been going on for some 40 years, President Nixon first declared was on the use of drugs in America. This symposium will reexamine the war and look at it in historical perspective. Some law students are able to come for free; fees without CLE credit are modest and cover

RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature

This looks like one of the Fraternal Order of the Eagles Monument. As a one time Okie I am offended that the legislature could not at least design a new monument, rather than dig up an old one. But, what will the Satanists put on their monument? ***

RE: Ministerial Housing Allowance Ruled Unconstitutional

>"In these words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on." > >Robert Frost > > > > > >On Nov 28, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Finkelman, Paul >wrote: > >> The IRS code has lots of breaks for special interests. Is this any diff

RE: Ministerial Housing Allowance Ruled Unconstitutional

f neutrality between religious groups that have parsonages where priests or other clergy live free and others that don't have parsonages and whose clergy live in the community. Mark Scarberry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone Original message ---

RE: Ministerial Housing Allowance Ruled Unconstitutional

The IRS code has lots of breaks for special interests. Is this any different than tax breaks for wind turbines or middle class home owners who deduct their interest payments? I bet Roberts and Scalia will find no difference. And it is historical and Thomas and Scalia love old historical reaso

RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent

kel...@albanylaw.edu> www.paulfinkelman.com<http://www.paulfinkelman.com> * From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] on behalf of Finkelman, Paul [paul.finkel...@albanyl

RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent

Mr. Pardee, I have just posted some statistics on divorce and out-of-wedlock births that might pass as "facts." They suggest that states that allow same sex marriages have lower divorce rates and lower out of wedlock birth rates than state that oppose same sex marriage. Might we consider this

The danger of the Heterosexual life style -- high divorce rates and out-of-wedlock children

Mr. New posted something (below) about the gay lifestyle without of course telling us what it is. But, perhaps we can get an insight into these issues by looking at divorce rate and rate of out-of-wedlock births. We might call this the hetero-sexual lifestyle. As the numbers below show, state

RE: Marriage -- the Alito dissent

Dear Mr. New I would love to know that the "homosexual lifestyle" is. One of my former students is a law graduate and a sitting judge; her partner/wife has and MBA; they have twin daughters (through a sperm bank); are members of the local Temple, one is on the board of the Temple. They live in

RE: Ban on Feeding Homeless

Is this a standard, time, place, manner restriction with pretty standard "police powers" to regulate public health? Would the church members be allowed to hold a public march on the same parkway, or leaflet cars on the parkway? This story almost sounds like some final exam question in a First Am

RE: Laws that impose "semi-religious, ethical view[s]"

ant or impermissible than those other laws I mentioned. Eugene From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:42 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: German

RE: German circumcision decision

I put cruel in quotation marks because while Kosher or Halal slaughtering may be less instant than other kinds, given the horrible treatment of animals in feed lots and at commercial slaughterhouses, it seems that the "cruel" is clearly relative. A proper Kosher slaughtering takes only a few se

RE: German circumcision decision

Alan's point raises another analytical issue. If "don't harm the body" is a semi-religious, ethical view, then aren't the German court and the proponents of the SF measure simply imposing their religious values on those of others who have a different faith. I think it is not unreasonable to see

RE: German circumcision decision

there is mixed evidence on circumcision. Some suggesting it helps prevent cervical cancer in female partners; some that lowers the spread of STDs. The research is mixed and politicized (like lots of research) but there is evidence it has medical value. ***

RE: Providing public school credits for release-time religious classes

Mark: School require a certain number of course credits, just like colleges; you need to pass a specified number of classes; they are not all requirement. But, if you allow "theology" or "bible study" or "voodoo" from a non-accredited teacher and school, with no outside supervision, you are es

RE: Providing public school credits for release-time religious classes

This strikes me as simply another example of the willingness of courts to undermine public education and educational standards, while at the same undermining any separation of Church and State. The Zorach concept was to allow release time, which was bad enough. When I was in school we basicall

RE: Religious exemptions in ND

I posted something briefly from my droid that was short, but now raise it more completely. Is there any evidence that the defeat in ND was at least in part about Indian religious freedom. There is some serious tension between Indians and non-Indians in ND and since the whole issue of RFRA came

Re: PS RE: Defeat of RFRA constitutional amendment in North Dakota

Among many other reasons it may reflect hostility to Native Americans. Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: Douglas Laycock To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' Sent: Wed, Jun 13, 2012 20:49:25 GMT+00:00 Subject: PS RE: Defeat of RFRA constitutional

RE: Citation errors in HeinonLine

012 10:40 AM To: Finkelman, Paul ; lawcour...@listserv.tulane.edu; conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu; religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: Emery, Robert; Reference, Shared; dros...@wshein.com Subject: RE: Citation errors in HeinonLine List Members: I forwarded Paul's comment on HeinOnline to Daniel Ro

RE: Report: NYPD fires Orthodox Jew recruit for refusing to trim beard

you want to be my agent? (or will the bearded non-cop who is a cop be the "agent" * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, NY 12208 518-445-3386 (p) 518-44

RE: Report: NYPD fires Orthodox Jew recruit for refusing to trim beard

folliculitis I think we need to create the Doug Laycock award for use of most obscure word on the list serve -- and Doug wins the first award. * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 N

Citation errors in HeinonLine

I was just preparing for a summer seminar I am giving and asked my librarian to get me some US Supreme Court Court Cases from Hein-on-Line. It turns out that most of them have incorrect citations. As a sample, here is the one from Schenck v. US Citation: 249 U.S. 47 1918 And from Griswold v. Con

RE: Parsonage/Housing Exclusion

I am not a tax person (that is an understatement) but my understanding is that if the university requires the president to live in a University house, then there are no tax consequences for the free rent. It is sort of like living in your office. With univ. presidents (or even law school deans

RE: Statement on Religious Liberty from USCCB

In fairness to the others on the list, I think people who are posting things should actually their names and even give an affiliation, if they have one. I have no idea who "Bob" is. * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKinley Distinguish

RE: Court upholds prison no-pork policy against EstablishmentClause challenge

The french experience with intolerance is very different than ours and thu leads to different outcomes and paths. Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: "Friedman, Howard M." To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, Apr 12, 2012 03:10:57 GMT+00:0

RE: Point of Information -- not quite on topic

I did mean ON school teams. The drawback of writing on a "not so smart" phone while sitting in a faculty meeting. Sorry for the typo. Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: Douglas Laycock To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' Sent: Tue, Mar 6, 2012

RE: Basketball tournaments on the Sabbath

I am guessing that the leaders of this organization never dreamed of a Jewish basketball team going to the finals. They never heard of Dolph Shayes or Nancy Lieberman. More seriously: If the organization (which includes many Christian schools) played games on Sundays, would the Hebrew high

Re: Basketball tournaments on the Sabbath

The "common sense" is what is often lacking and with a sense of fairness and toleration. Apparently for the leaders of the TAPP "common sense" means everyone is a Christian and all people have a Sunday sabbath. The lawyers serve as educator to teach common sense and respect for other religions

RE: Basketball tournaments on the Sabbath

APPS caved, yesterday. There was another story in the Times this >morning. Haven't heard the score of the game. > >On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:11:44 + > "Finkelman, Paul > " wrote: > >I am guessing that the leaders of this organization never dreamed > of

Re: Request for information re student proselytization at middle schools

I think u sent this to the wrong "Paul" Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: "Saperstein, David" To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, Feb 9, 2012 17:31:49 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Request for information re student proselytization at middle s

RE: Interesting late 1800s Arkansas law related to government and religion

Marci: Presumably there is a free exercise right to expel people from your church for having the wrong political ideas. So, I suppose if the church leaders say "you must support candidate x" and a member does not, and openly supports "y" then it is a free exercise right for the Church to expel

RE: Catholic University sued about prayer rooms for Muslims

Since Jesus is a prophet in the Muslim faith, I wonder how serious the complaint is. * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, NY 12208 518-445-3386 (p) 518-

Re: Back of the bus?

agement. Suit was filed in 2009. Jean On Oct 20, 2011, at Thu, Oct 20, 11:38 AM, Finkelman, Paul wrote: > It is not the "town" that is involved. It is the City of New York. Last > time I looked Williamsburg was still part of Brooklyn. This seems so > outrageous

RE: Back of the bus?

It is not the "town" that is involved. It is the City of New York. Last time I looked Williamsburg was still part of Brooklyn. This seems so outrageous it is hard to comprehend from a legal perspective. It does reflect the desire of many (certainly not all) in the ultra-Orthodox and Hassidic

RE: Go to Church or Go to Jail?

the enlistment deal is different; and lots people took it including a friend of mine who had killed some people in the DWI and was offered jail or the marines; he took the marines and after Nam went to law school and became a prosecutor. * Paul Fi

RE: Go to Church or Go to Jail?

Oh, I just remembered. When I was the main expert in the Ten Commandments monument case in Alabama (Glassroth v. Moore), Chief Justice Roy Moore said that the Ten Commandments monument could not offend any religion because all religions believe in the Ten Commandments. When asked about Hindus o

RE: The End of NY's Kosher Inspectors

gionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Finkelman, Paul Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 05:21 To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: The End of NY's Kosher Inspectors I once knew a lot about this; but that was years ago; I

RE: The End of NY's Kosher Inspectors

I once knew a lot about this; but that was years ago; I am at the AALS meeting now and can't access information. There is an essay on Kosher inspection laws in Religion and American Law: An Encyclopedia (Routledge [formerly Garland] 1999), which I edited. The laws date from the early 19th cent

RE: Avitzur

o respond to its summons or to carry out its decision." David B. Cruz Professor of Law University of Southern California Gould School of Law Los Angeles, CA 90089-0071 U.S.A. From: "Finkelman, Paul mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu>>" mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu>

Avitzur

I am in California for AALS and can't dig out Avitzur; but if I recall correctly (and please, someone correct me if i am wrong); but I thought that the case involved in the enforcement of the N Y Get law (which is of dubious constitutionality) which requires a man who is the moving party in a Or

RE: Religious arbitration

Eugene: I do not think there is a "witness" limitation for a Bet Din. Only observant Jewish men can serve on an orthodox bet din -- a reform or conservative bet din is more flexible * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKinley Distinguishe

RE: Evaluating candidates based on their religious views

Is there a differenced between a stated "belief" and an assertion of scientifc fact or accepted knowledge? Or is this too fine a point. Is there a difference between "belief" and "action." In another context a store clerk says, "I believe unmarried people should not have sex" but that it woul

RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic 'Mass Cards'

Probably so unconstitutional that it would not even be a good exam question. It is also an incredible threat to free exercise. Who would want the state telling the church how to run its business? * Paul Finkelman, Ph.D. President William McKin