Todd,
I don't think it works that way. With the assembly, there is a higher
pressure loss, hence a reduced flow. The pressure is not important. The
bucket test is done to measure the flow. GENERALLY, the actual flow without
the test assembly should be higher than the the measured flow. I emphasize
Voice alarm with fault ridden smokes
is still the same old joke:
this time -- not by howling
from a wolf in sheep's clothing,
but by a human voice
in a more expensive device
that does little to correct
the repetitive numbing effect.
scot deal
excelsior fire
___
I still have mine in my Basement Todd.
5' piece of 4" PVC drain pipe with a 4" female pvc end glued. 4" male pvc
plug with a 1" hole drilled in the center goes into the female end. 1/2" x
4" nipple to a ball valve, another nipple and coupling with a fused head to
match the house system heads. Th
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I don't know the answer but have forwarded to those that do.
Unfortunately it will be after the holiday vacation before we have an
answer.
Roland
On Dec 16, 2009, at 4:11 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote:
> Is there any way to search the archives for material older than 5
> months? I liked the o
Wow. So even four year olds on the west coast know about our sad situation*
here. It will take a long time to live this down.
*For Mr. Muncy's benefit, we are talking about our retrofit ordinance that
exempts residential high-rise buildings built before 1975 as long as they have
compartmentat
It makes me so proud ... .
Ask him what Jay Cutler says and he'll tell you, "Wah!"
Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Terri
pp...@firesprinkler.org
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This is off topic, but I had to share. Sorry Mr. Muncy, in advance...
-
David - aka Mr. Chicago,
If you ask the 4-year old Little Leyton: "Who is the biggest cry-baby in the
NFL???"
His response is: "Jay Cutler."
Go Bolts.
Terri Simmons Leyton
PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING
Ph:
794 to 113.
Dave
David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP
Firetech Engineering Incorporated
--- On Mon, 12/21/09, Ron Greenman wrote:
From: Ron Greenman
Subject: Re: Vote for Residential Sprinklers - NOW please!
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 5:09 PM
John,
I think the bucket test started because Uponor still requires it for their
multi port (all 1/2" pex pipe network system.
Mike Cabral
Thom McMahon wrote:
> I believe that I will submit a proposal to the next round of 13D to prohibit
> bucket tests due to the lack of any standard or appreci
I am taking all of these backhanded compliments about Chicago in stride here.
Having lived in the city for more than 30 years, before moving a few miles
north, I came to appreciate the windy city's unofficial motto: vote early and
often. That's the way we get things done. Nice to know we can
John,
I voted for your father also. I'm sure he'd have liked that. I also
voted for all the NAHB guys I know because they'll be needing some
help later.
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:36 PM, John Denhardt
wrote:
> Same here. 10 times. I voted for my father. He passed away 4 years ago.
> Love you
Same here. 10 times. I voted for my father. He passed away 4 years ago.
Love you dad.
John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
5113 Berwyn Road
College Park, Maryland 20740
Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136
Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457
FIRE SPRIN
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So when I went back to vote again another person had voted no. I voted
yes two more times after the second. I feel like I'm in Chicago.
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Ron Greenman wrote:
> Done! And I may vote again.
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Terri Leyton
> wrote:
>> A local TV stat
Done! And I may vote again.
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Terri Leyton
wrote:
> A local TV station in Pennsylvania is doing an online poll on
> residential fire sprinklers, today only.
>
> Please take a moment to "click and vote".
>
> Thanks! A safe and Happy Holiday to ALL!
>
>
>
> http://ww
After the NAHB's "statistics" how irrelevant cane they be. We're just
balancing the system if you ask me.
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:12 PM, wrote:
> So the numbers will be irrelevant.
>
>
> Craig L. Prahl, CET
> Fire Protection Specialist
> Mechanical Department
> CH2MHILL
> Lockwood Greene
> 150
I believe that I will submit a proposal to the next round of 13D to prohibit
bucket tests due to the lack of any standard or appreciable value and added
expense to a system in which "Affordable" has always been an important part
of the decision tree.
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ri
So the numbers will be irrelevant.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com
-Original
Washington State Fire Marshals Office has an acceptance testing form, the
bucket test is written on the form if the local AHJ requires it. In one
area that we work there isn't a lot of information with regard to the
underground distribution system, so the AHJ requires the test, if the end
results
Uh, did you know you can back up and vote again?
A friend in Chicago noted that to me.
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Eric Tysinger
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:57 PM
To: sprinklerforum@f
David,
Nowhere in NFPA. In Washington it's:
WAC 212-80-088 Contractor's materials and test certificates. (1) The
design certificate of competency holder shall complete the
contractor's material and test certificate(s), affix his/her
certificate of competency stamp, and forward the certificate(s)
655/105 Keep them going.
Thanks,
Eric Tysinger CET
NICET 108988
Designer
Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc.
4370 Motorsport Drive
Concord, NC 28027
p: (704)782-3032
f: (704)795-6838
C: (239)633-9703
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerfo
I sent the link to some large CA groups about an hour ago - the vote count was
274 then... HeHe indeed.
Terri Simmons Leyton
PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING
Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101
Fax: 858-751-2933
Cell: 619-871-8450
If you do not have a dream in your pocket, run, don't walk, and fi
Now 637
John
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Cahill
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Vote for Residential Sprinklers - NOW pleas
Hehe, 633 for sprinklers 103 against at 4:44 PA local time. Methinks the
sampling population has been skewed a bit.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55
I agree with Ron that there seem to be as many variations of this
test as there are people doing it and it can be of marginal value.
I built a simulation of a bucket test on Autosprink. I removed the
two remote sprinklers on a system and replaced them with the
following assembly: 1/2" x 0-4 nip
Scott,
We post a sign on the riser that spells out the requirements for annual
testing, it sums up 4.2.4, we tell the owner we will be happy to provide
this service, but presently none have taken us up on it. My personal
thoughts is in the residential world antifreeze is not a good option due to
Whenever the AHJ says he wants on in 13d where the calcs don't have the same
intestinal fortitude as our 13R and 13 calcs.
Which begs the question- why do a bucket test if you did "real calcs"?
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-b
I've heard of it, seen the video, now it's being discussed here.
Where is the requirement for a bucket test?
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
___
Out of curiosity:
How will the annual testing of the antifreeze be accomplished? 4.2.4
(2007), Before freezing weather each year, the following procedure shall
be performed:
(1) Solution in the entire antifreeze system emptied into convenient
containers.
(2) Solution brought to the proper
A local TV station in Pennsylvania is doing an online poll on
residential fire sprinklers, today only.
Please take a moment to "click and vote".
Thanks! A safe and Happy Holiday to ALL!
http://www.wjactv.com/news/1960993/detail.html
Terri
Terri Simmons Leyton
PROTECTION DESIGN &
I will be out of the office starting 12/19/2009 and will not return until
01/04/2010.
I will be periodically checking my emails throughout this time, but if you
need immediate assistance, please contact Pam Hetzel
(phet...@victaulic.com) at ext. 3451 or Eric McWhirter
(emcwhir...@victaulic.com)
Back when 13 used to be 291C?,
if i remember correctly,
Home Depot called its bulk commodity a Class IV
non-encapsulated. There were fires that tested this
design, some involving oxidizers. I think the clamoring
from NFPA and regulators over these near-misses may
have motivated Lowes
to ante up
Absolutely right. HodgePodge as in any general retail store.
Thom, I know you don't want to do it, but the ONLY way to bid this is OH2
and qualify your bis as such, that you're assuming the top shelf is a CAP to
signify to employees that storage can't exceed this 12' AFF mark. Cause you
know most
There are all kinds of commodities: flammable liquids,
aerosols, expanded Polystyrene plastic insulation,
combustible liquids, haz-mats, and your plain vanilla
Class I-IV (encapsulated and not), with a variety of:
shelves (open or closed), transverse
and longitudinal flue widths, and aisle widths,
I agree with Todd that you would be better off if someone else made the call.
Or are you bidding a design/build project? Perhaps share the load by hiring an
engr as a sub to you.
Other thoughts:
How about the owner's certificate -- now required by 13? Can you get a
commitment on product a
If you follow Owen's advice you will get an inaccurate reading. You
are attempting to measure flow at the head with the system pressure at
that head behind it. The length of pipe will add, if five feet long,
will add 2.17 psi minus the loss through five feet of 1" pipe plus the
restriction caused b
Are they asking you as the sprinkler contractor to determine the
commodity class? I am with Mr. Williams that you shouldn't have to make
that selection. The commodity class should be called out in the
specification with input to the engineer from the AHJ (wether it is the
insurance carrier or the
100 lbs... not 100 gallons.
If your system requires 35 gpm and you do a bucket test for 30
seconds, in theory, you will get at least 17.5 gallons of water. At
8.35 lbs/gallon, that is approximately 146 lbs of water on carpeted,
painted and furnished space you will need to remove without spillin
Hah!,
Not really a punch line, we try to keep several 55 gallon drums around with
hose connections made into them. Seems some contractors do not realize what
a down piece does or the effect upon the remaining 200 feet of main and
branch lines. The unlucky contractor finds out later when they pull
You know you CAN produce a suction line by sucking really hard- the local
inspector should have plenty of zip
And to get 100 gallons in there in a minute from a K4.4 head, boy you must
have tanks atop some really big hills. Like a tank 1,000' uphill, since
you'd need about 500 PSI to get 100 G
Todd,
Pump it off into the nearest toilet or window would be my suggestion.
G. Tim Stone
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343
ts
Wow, I was hoping for a better punch-line than that. ;)
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m
Fit the can with a hose connection before hand.
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-bou
Thanks. One question: How do you get a trash can with 100# of water
off the third floor of a house without creating a disaster?
At 02:11 PM 12/21/2009, you wrote:
>Todd,
>Take a 1" copper or CPVC pipe, 5' long. On one end place male
>threads to be screwed into the over head. At the other end pl
I wouldn't make a commodity class call without looking at the actual
product. In a perfect world, they should have a PE or at least the
insurance carrier making that determination. Does ACE have a standard
specification?
At 02:03 PM 12/21/2009, you wrote:
>We've been looking at an ACE brand h
Grounding: is the process of bonding one or more conductive objects to the
earth so that they are all at zero electrical potential. Bonding: is a process
by two or more conductive objects are connected by means of a conductor so that
they are at the same electrical potential. The voltage differe
Joe, I would like to see them please.
I always assumed bonding meant just that, to make one. This is essential so
that all metal components in a structure have a Common path to ground (or
Earth for our friends over yonder). I ran into this helping the
brother-in-law do electrical service work on
Todd,
Take a 1" copper or CPVC pipe, 5' long. On one end place male threads to be
screwed into the over head. At the other end place a female connection for the
sprinkler head (break the deflector off). In between place a 1/4 turn valve.
Place a 30 gal trash can (pre-marked at gallon increments)
We've been looking at an ACE brand hardware/home center store, and trying to
decide if it's class III or class IV commodities. They've already screwed up
any possible OH II (Mercantile) because they have single row shelves and
single row solid shelve racks with the top shelve or solid shelve rack a
Please add me to the photo list.
Thanks,
Gus Olson
gus.ol...@earthlink.net
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Put me down for photos Joe.
>To anyone who wants I can forward 2 good pictures that we can debate
>whether
>it's bonding or grounding.
>Joe Burtell
Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
russ...@brownautomatic.com
__
Does anyone have a good description of how to do a bucket test? I
have a client who has been asked to do one on a 13D system but hasn't
done one before. I have a general idea, but would appreciate input
from someone with more experience.
Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
St
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That'll work.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Johnston
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 12:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Residential Anti-Freeze Sytems
Are
To anyone who wants I can forward 2 good pictures that we can debate whether
it's bonding or grounding.
Joe Burtell
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sprinkler
Academy - C Bilbo
Sent: Monday,
Yo forumites,
Bonding is not easy too define in an exact way as totally different from
grounding. The difference is in the purpose.
-Don't ground something to the sprinkler system that may make the sprinkler
system become charged.
-Do bond the system to the building and the lightning pr
Are you talking expansion tank? If so we have those installed.
Jim Johnston, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Inland Fire Protection, Inc
1100 Ahtanum Road
Yakima, WA 98903
Phone 509-248-4471
Fax 509-248-1180
j...@inlandfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
From: Chris Cahill [mailto:chr..
The only thing I don't see is a mention of temperature related
over-pressurization control.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy
Does anybody on the forum have experience with residential antifreeze? We
have a community in Central Washington where sprinklers are required period
no exception, the homes are high-end getaway homes. Some of the clients
want antifreeze as a backup measure for freeze protection; we install
Fi
All:
There is a current thread on another list that we subscribe to regarding
electrical bonding of sprinkler systems.The cited reference is NEC
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel; since I
have always subscribed to the "Let Sparky do the wiring" school of
electrical
I would hope they do, but I doubt it will bring the outrage it deserves.
Residential sprinklers aren't taken for granted (obviously) so its not the
same effect as if Detroit starting shipping cars without seat belts, and
someone died from smashing the windshield with their face. It'll just be
anoth
Ron,
Thanks for sharing this information; I only wish we could get everybody
on-board with this. It's too bad that our State Building Codes people felt
in their infinite wisdom that residential sprinklers were too costly,
obviously in their eyes and the home builders associations eyes a life is
a
There is no practical way to run a flow test on
the copper. This is one of several issues at this
site including a significant drop in residual
pressures in the building. My guess is that the
final solution will be to replace the main. Given
that we had 16-18" of snow this weekend, nobody
is
Todd, is it possible to run a flow test at the end of the copper line to
simply measure the real thing instead of degrading it?
We'd had an AHJ want to degrade DI UG down to C=80 or 90, until we removed a
section and showed it to him- clean as a whistle, allowed C=140 after all.
glc
-Origina
I have no problem with C120 for the pipe from a
technical standpoint, but it does make the calcs
go over the curve. (2/3 of the system friction
loss is in the underground). I have no idea how
old the pipe is and there is no cathodic
protection that I am aware of. As far as where
they came up
NFPA 13 (2002) section 14.1.3 (4) calls for a section view or
"schematic diagram" on all drawings. What do they mean by a schematic drawing?
Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
___
S
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