Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-07-17 10:44, Rory McCann wrote:

> I don't think this counts as "tagging for the renderer", which is more about 
> adding false data to "make the map look like what you want" (e.g. "I want a 
> blue line here, like the `route=ferry` line, so I'll use that").
> 
> I think it could be very helpful for place names which aren't pronounced the 
> way you pronounce regular English words. e.g. in Ireland: "Dun Laoghaire" 
> [dun leary], "Tallaght" [tala], "Youghal" [yal], "Portlaoise" [port leash]. 
> This could be a problem even in England with places like "Reading", 
> "Worchester", "Cirencester".

And homographs like Gillingham (Kent) and Gillingham (Dorset) which are
pronounced differently (soft vs hard G) 

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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Greg Troxel]

Rory McCann  writes:

> I don't think this counts as “tagging for the renderer”, which is more
> about adding false data to “make the map look like what you want”
> (e.g. “I want a blue line here, like the `route=ferry` line, so I'll
> use that”).
>
> I think it could be very helpful for place names which aren't
> pronounced the way you pronounce regular English words. e.g. in
> Ireland: “Dun Laoghaire” [dun leary], “Tallaght” [tala], “Youghal”
> [yal], “Portlaoise” [port leash]. This could be a problem even in
> England with places like “Reading”, “Worchester”, “Cirencester”.

I was about to start off by suggesting that the name->IPA database be
separate as it was not clearly geospatial.  After congratuluating myself
for knowing how to pronounce Portlaoise, I came to "Worchester".  In New
England, we have a "Worcester" and "Marlborough" as well, but they are
pronounced quite differently, "w[oo-shwaish] stah'", and the first R in
marlboro is mostly dropped, boston style.  It definitely sounds funny
when pronounced in straight standard English, and I had already
considered extending osmand to have boston pronunciations.

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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Mateusz Konieczny]

17 lip 2019, 09:29 od winfi...@gmail.com:

> Mapping for the renderer means: adding factually wrong data such that it 
> renders the way the mapper wants to see it getting rendered (on the standard 
> rendering).
>
Or removing correct data to achieve the same.
> That's not what adding IPA strings would do.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Rory McCann]

I don't think this counts as “tagging for the renderer”, which is more 
about adding false data to “make the map look like what you want” (e.g. 
“I want a blue line here, like the `route=ferry` line, so I'll use that”).


I think it could be very helpful for place names which aren't pronounced 
the way you pronounce regular English words. e.g. in Ireland: “Dun 
Laoghaire” [dun leary], “Tallaght” [tala], “Youghal” [yal], “Portlaoise” 
[port leash]. This could be a problem even in England with places like 
“Reading”, “Worchester”, “Cirencester”.


On 17/07/2019 00:54, Andrew Errington wrote:
I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of 
graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.


The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS 
engine.


If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting 
arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is 
tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.


IMHO, of course.

Andrew

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel > wrote:


John Whelan mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>>
writes:

 > One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
 > abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First
Avenue.
 >
 > Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
 > application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
 > be able to come up with a generic solution.

Two comments:

   osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
   should be fixed first

   Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road
whose ref
   is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
   this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
   table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
   to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
   "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not
reasonable.


But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
does need fixing.


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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Lester Caine]

On 17/07/2019 08:29, Jo wrote:
Unfortunately TTS is not perfect and it never will be, for one thing 
because it's often difficult to decide with TTS (which language) to use 
for each word in a name string.


For many years I used a TTS engine called Rhetorical on a caller 
management system we supplied. It was used to allow calling people by 
name rather than ticket number ... we will ignore the privacy debate ... 
there was a general consensus that at that time the personal style was 
better. The nice thing about Rhetorical was that even without any help 
it did a better job pronouncing foreign surnames and some of the staff 
did ;) It also had a very good mechanism for adding improvements to 
words when there was any particularly obvious mispronunciation. In 
addition selection of a different 'output language' worked well, 
possibly because the company involved was based in Scotland, and the 
clarity of Scottish pronunciation worked well. We had already had to 
re-work the older 'English' segmented announcements using a Scottish 
voice because of complaints ... but perhaps the main point here is that 
this was providing THE SAME English text!


Rhetorical was bought up by an American company and essentially dropped, 
but I think CereProc is using the same engine and a large range of 
'voices' are available on Android ... if only OSMAnd could access them :(


Text to Speech rendering is exactly the same problem as tile rendering 
and adding tagging for particular processes will always be wrong. The 
real problem is that there is no mechanism to add corrections in a 
secondary system in much the same way as there is no translation system 
for the key English elements of the data. Even IPA strings depend on the 
context and accent that is being vocalised!


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Maarten Deen]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Andrew Errington  
wrote:



I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of
graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.

The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the
TTS engine.

If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting
arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is
tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.


And if not, then you're at the will of the TTS engine. There are words 
that are pronounced differently depending on their meaning. Some example 
from the English language, I'm sure other languages have examples too:

a bow - to bow (second sounds more like baw)
he does things - the does do things (short o, long o)
A minute part of a minute
wind (is blowing) - wind (the clock)

And then we haven't even touched the problem on which syllable to put 
emphasis.


All these things make it impossible for a TTS engine to know what 
pronunciation is correct, except when you lay it down for each word. We 
had a new operator for the public transport in my neighborhood and they 
used a TTS engine to generate the stop information. It was just 
horrible. Incorrect pronunciation, incorrect emphasis.


The OsmAND TTS also does funny things, there is a John F. Kennedystreet 
in my town. The TTS pauses at the dot. Obviously it thinks the sentence 
ends there. But it doesn't. It's just an abbreviation. And no, this is 
not an abbreviation like St. or Ave. that you would write out fully. The 
street name is not John Fitzgerald Kennedystreet.


IMHO an IPA string would be a welcome and usefull addition to OSM.
Could you also not use it for transliterations?

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Jul 2019, at 19:52, Jo  wrote:
> 
> If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast, as 
> some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other, depending 
> how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there


yes, signed names would apply primarily to the street sign, they are only 
punctually observable.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Jul 2019, at 19:38, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the 
> abbreviation:


Sometimes I see edit wars where people modify back and forth the value of the 
name tag to expand and reintroduce abbreviations. Do not do it. Add both, 
particularly add the common name and the name as signposted, and if different, 
the official name.

While it may usually seem trivial for a local to expand an abbreviation, it 
often isn’t for strangers and people speaking a different language.

Rather than thinking about rules to expand abbreviations we should look at 
rules how to create them when needed (both isn’t trivial, but the latter at 
least will not have to bother with disambiguation). 

Even if you knew the language for the name (which typically is not the case 
with “name”, where you can only guess, or compare to a dictionary), there may 
be several alternatives for expanding an abbreviation. There are good reasons 
why we discouraged using abbreviations from the beginning.

Cheers Martin 




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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Jo]

Mapping for the renderer means: adding factually wrong data such that it
renders the way the mapper wants to see it getting rendered (on the
standard rendering).

That's not what adding IPA strings would do. True, there are multiple ways
to pronounce certain words.

Unfortunately TTS is not perfect and it never will be, for one thing
because it's often difficult to decide with TTS (which language) to use for
each word in a name string.

If OsmAND were to support the use of IPA, then I would be motivated to
transcribe all Brussels's street names in Dutch and French. Standard common
denominator Dutch and French. It would be a lot nicer to listen to than the
letters A U X spelled separately in Dutch, instead of simply 'O', what
would be the French pronunciation of those 3 letters combined. Some of the
terms in those street names are actually English names. It's simply
impossible for TTS set to Dutch or French to get those right.

IPA would definitely solve that annoyance.

Polyglot

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Andrew Errington 
wrote:

> I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of
> graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.
>
> The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS
> engine.
>
> If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting
> arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is
> tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.
>
> IMHO, of course.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> John Whelan  writes:
>>
>> > One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
>> > abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>> >
>> > Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
>> > application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
>> > be able to come up with a generic solution.
>>
>> Two comments:
>>
>>   osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
>>   should be fixed first
>>
>>   Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
>>   is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
>>   this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
>>   table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
>>   to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
>>   "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.
>>
>>
>> But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
>> 2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
>> does need fixing.
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Andrew Errington]

I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of
graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.

The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS
engine.

If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting arguments
about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is tagging for the
renderer, which we should avoid.

IMHO, of course.

Andrew

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel  wrote:

> John Whelan  writes:
>
> > One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> > abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> > application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> > be able to come up with a generic solution.
>
> Two comments:
>
>   osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
>   should be fixed first
>
>   Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
>   is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
>   this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
>   table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
>   to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
>   "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.
>
>
> But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
> 2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
> does need fixing.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Greg Troxel]

John Whelan  writes:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> be able to come up with a generic solution.

Two comments:

  osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
  should be fixed first

  Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
  is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
  this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
  table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
  to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
  "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.


But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
does need fixing.


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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-07-16 19:52, Jo wrote:

> If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast, as 
> some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other, depending 
> how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there.

Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't write the wiki! 

> Expanding abbreviations is the norm. I try to do it even for first and middle 
> names of people, when the street is named after a person. That only works if 
> it's possible to find it somewhere, of course.

Apparently not everyone agrees with you, otherwise those exceptions
would not be noted in the wiki. Are you recommending that the exceptions
be removed from the wiki? 

> Polyglot 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:40 PM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
> On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote: 
> also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold : 
> 
> DON'T USE ABBREVIATIONS
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions 
> 
> But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the 
> abbreviation: 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Jo]

If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast,
as some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other,
depending how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there.

Expanding abbreviations is the norm. I try to do it even for first and
middle names of people, when the street is named after a person. That only
works if it's possible to find it somewhere, of course.

Polyglot

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:40 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:
>
> also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :
>
> Don't use abbreviations
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions
>
>
>
> But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses
> the abbreviation:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

> also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold : 
> 
> DON'T USE ABBREVIATIONS
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions

But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses
the abbreviation: 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29___
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Jo]

When using OsmAnd in the streets of Brussels, it doesn't matter what the
language is set to, the French - Dutch combo is consistently pronounced
wrongly.

IPA would indeed solve that.

Editor support would be very welcome to enter the proper characters and to
listen to the result, both in JOSM and iD. And maybe even to help mappers
get started with the most likely pronunciation for a given language.

It would need to be used for ALL tags that contain names, not only the ones
that have 'deviant' pronunciation. In a mutlilingual system it's almost
impossible to define what is and what isn't 'deviating', as the
pronunciation rules are different across almost all languages.

For JOSM, should I propose this as GSoC project for next summer, or would
it not be that hard to implement by our overworked core developers? Or
would it make sense I
give it a go myself?

Polyglot

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:10 PM Nuno Caldeira 
wrote:

> also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :
>
> Don't use abbreviations
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions
>
> A terça, 16/07/2019, 18:05, Stefan Baebler 
> escreveu:
>
>> I think IPA (
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ) would 
>> address
>> that problem, but that would require many more tags, which are not trivial
>> for mappers to write.
>>
>> Br,
>> Štefan
>>
>>
>> V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale 
>> napisala:
>>
>>> The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid
>>> ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the
>>> case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be
>>> unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in
>>> its working language?
>>>
>>> Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to
>>> pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav
>>> started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any
>>> of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak
>>> such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of
>>> Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish
>>> word?
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French
>>> rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound
>>> weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:
>>>
>>> This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?
>>>
>>> To go back to earlier ideas.
>>>
>>> Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs
>>> are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on
>>> the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about
>>> street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality
>>> declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue
>>> Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in
>>> Ontario the other.
>>>
>>> Thoughts
>>>
>>> Thanks John
>>>
>>> Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:
>>>
>>> On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:
>>>
>>> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
>>> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
>>> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
>>> able to come up with a generic solution.
>>>
>>> Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate
>>> generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there
>>> are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and
>>> the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing
>>> Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to
>>> Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland
>>> should be able to make use of name:XX.
>>>
>>> If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client
>>> app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be
>>> needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in
>>> question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make
>>> mistakes
>>>
>>>
>>> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words
>>>
>>> Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Nuno Caldeira]

also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

Don't use abbreviations

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions

A terça, 16/07/2019, 18:05, Stefan Baebler 
escreveu:

> I think IPA (
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ) would 
> address
> that problem, but that would require many more tags, which are not trivial
> for mappers to write.
>
> Br,
> Štefan
>
>
> V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale 
> napisala:
>
>> The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid
>> ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the
>> case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be
>> unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in
>> its working language?
>>
>> Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to
>> pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav
>> started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any
>> of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak
>> such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of
>> Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish
>> word?
>>
>> On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French
>> rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound
>> weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:
>>
>> This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?
>>
>> To go back to earlier ideas.
>>
>> Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are
>> posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the
>> sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street
>> names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares
>> the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or
>> should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the
>> other.
>>
>> Thoughts
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:
>>
>> On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:
>>
>> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
>> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>>
>> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
>> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
>> able to come up with a generic solution.
>>
>> Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic
>> solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street
>> names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the
>> expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue
>> would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch
>> rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be
>> able to make use of name:XX.
>>
>> If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client
>> app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be
>> needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in
>> question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make
>> mistakes
>>
>>
>> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words
>>
>> Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Stefan Baebler]

I think IPA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
) would address that problem, but that would require many more tags, which
are not trivial for mappers to write.

Br,
Štefan


V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale 
napisala:

> The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid
> ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the
> case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be
> unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in
> its working language?
>
> Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to
> pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav
> started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any
> of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak
> such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of
> Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish
> word?
>
> On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French
> rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound
> weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...
>
>
>
> On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:
>
> This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?
>
> To go back to earlier ideas.
>
> Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are
> posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the
> sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street
> names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares
> the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or
> should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the
> other.
>
> Thoughts
>
> Thanks John
>
> Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:
>
> On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:
>
> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
> able to come up with a generic solution.
>
> Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic
> solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street
> names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the
> expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue
> would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch
> rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be
> able to make use of name:XX.
>
> If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client
> app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be
> needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in
> question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make
> mistakes
>
>
> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words
>
> Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols
>
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing 
> listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
> --
> Sent from Postbox 
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Colin Smale]

The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid
ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the
case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be
unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken
in its working language? 

Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to
pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav
started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise
any of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it
speak such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with
loads of Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to
pronounce a Polish word? 

On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French
rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound
weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...

On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:

> This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?
> 
> To go back to earlier ideas.
> 
> Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are 
> posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the 
> sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street 
> names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares 
> the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or 
> should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the 
> other.
> 
> Thoughts
> 
> Thanks John  
> 
> Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:
> 
> On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote: One or two are problematic usually as 
> the street name is an abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French 
> meaning First Avenue.
> 
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application 
> is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up 
> with a generic solution. 
> 
> Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic 
> solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street 
> names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation 
> is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound 
> completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly 
> multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make 
> use of name:XX. 
> 
> If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app 
> would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed 
> if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, 
> but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes 
> 
> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words
>  
> 
> Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols 
> 
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[john whelan]

I think this one has nailed it.

Thanks John

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 11:36, Stefan Baebler 
wrote:

> Hints to the speaker (human or TTS engine) can be provided via:
> 1) pronunciation tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics eg
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:pronunciation
> 2) teach it how to expand appreviations in different languages, eg
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations
> 3) Both :)
>
> br,
> Štefan
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:23 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>> The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.
>>
>>
>> 16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by nunocapelocalde...@gmail.com:
>>
>> in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations.
>>
>> A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan  escreveu:
>>
>> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
>> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>>
>> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
>> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
>> able to come up with a generic solution.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Sent from Postbox 
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[John Whelan]

This approach I like. Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs 
are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is 
on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions 
about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the 
municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with 
either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be 
one way but in Ontario the other.


Thoughts

Thanks John

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:


On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an 
abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.


Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular 
application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should 
be able to come up with a generic solution.


Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate 
generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) 
there are street names which are partially or entirely in other 
languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. 
For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were 
pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries 
like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.


If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the 
client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It 
will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard 
for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never 
perfect and often make mistakes


https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols




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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Stefan Baebler]

Hints to the speaker (human or TTS engine) can be provided via:
1) pronunciation tag:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics eg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:pronunciation
2) teach it how to expand appreviations in different languages, eg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations
3) Both :)

br,
Štefan

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:23 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.
>
>
> 16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by nunocapelocalde...@gmail.com:
>
> in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations.
>
> A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan  escreveu:
>
> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
> able to come up with a generic solution.
>
> Thanks John
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from Postbox 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.
> For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
> 
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application 
> is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up 
> with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate
generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there
are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and
the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing
Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to
Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland
should be able to make use of name:XX. 

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client
app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only
be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the
language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and
often make mistakes 

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words


Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols___
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Mateusz Konieczny]

The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.


16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by nunocapelocalde...@gmail.com:

> in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations. 
>
> A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan <> jwhelan0...@gmail.com 
> > > escreveu:
>
>> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    
>> For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>>  
>>  Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular 
>> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be 
>> able to come up with a generic solution.
>>  
>>  Thanks John
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> -- 
>>  
>> Sent from >> Postbox 
>> ___
>>  talk mailing list
>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Nuno Caldeira]

in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations.

A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan  escreveu:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
> able to come up with a generic solution.
>
> Thanks John
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from Postbox 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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[OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[John Whelan]

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an 
abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.


Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular 
application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be 
able to come up with a generic solution.


Thanks John



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