Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
On 15/09/2023 10:43, Paul Norman wrote: They have edited it back with https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141281494. I've left a changeset discussion comment asking why, and asking for a link to the required documentation and consultation. Maybe I'm being over-cynical, but I suspect that that may not work :) https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/15054 That's just "until a human reads it" - I've asked the bot to forward it to their tame human :) . When one does, they can hopefully take the action required and document things properly, and we can point them at https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=18539679 to address any other issues in their data. Best Regards, Andy (from the DWG) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Hi, aside from these apparently being undocumented bot edits, I'm also somewhat skeptical of their "healthcare:speciality" tag. It sounds terribly like advertising. It essentially covers everything you would expect a dentist to do - so why is healthcare=dentist not sufficient? Bye Frederik On 15.09.23 11:43, Paul Norman wrote: They have edited it back with https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141281494. I've left a changeset discussion comment asking why, and asking for a link to the required documentation and consultation. On 2023-09-14 12:36 a.m., Cj Malone wrote: On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental clinics) has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't own these nodes, other people can edit them. CJ https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
They have edited it back with https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141281494. I've left a changeset discussion comment asking why, and asking for a link to the required documentation and consultation. On 2023-09-14 12:36 a.m., Cj Malone wrote: On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental clinics) has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't own these nodes, other people can edit them. CJ https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Is there a bot that does this or is someone prepared to write one? -- Andrew From: Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) Sent: 14 September 2023 10:39 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war Maybe there should be a general good-practice recommendation / policy that bots running in this fashion to keep things in sync should only automatically add/update/remove a tag that they've previously set if the current state/value in OSM is unchanged from the last state/value that the bot set. This way, bots could be used to keep things up to date automatically, but would not automatically override any manually applied changes by other mappers between runs. (A sensible bot owner would have the bot send them a report of any tags that couldn't be updated for manual review.) Robert. On Thu, 14 Sept 2023 at 08:41, Cj Malone wrote: > > On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: > > My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental > > clinics) > > has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the > > values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. > > I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it > (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need > to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening > hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't > own these nodes, other people can edit them. > > CJ > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 -- Robert Whittaker ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Maybe there should be a general good-practice recommendation / policy that bots running in this fashion to keep things in sync should only automatically add/update/remove a tag that they've previously set if the current state/value in OSM is unchanged from the last state/value that the bot set. This way, bots could be used to keep things up to date automatically, but would not automatically override any manually applied changes by other mappers between runs. (A sensible bot owner would have the bot send them a report of any tags that couldn't be updated for manual review.) Robert. On Thu, 14 Sept 2023 at 08:41, Cj Malone wrote: > > On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: > > My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental > > clinics) > > has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the > > values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. > > I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it > (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need > to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening > hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't > own these nodes, other people can edit them. > > CJ > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 -- Robert Whittaker ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: > My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental > clinics) > has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the > values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't own these nodes, other people can edit them. CJ https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 11:42 +0200, Maarten Deen wrote: > There seems to have been an automated edit to add > opening_hours:covid19=same. > > I'm a bit curious how this can be an automated edit. Or does the bot > take external data of objects where the covid19 opening hours are the > same? > > And are covid19 restrictions still in place in Sweden? My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental clinics) has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. Whatever covid restrictions Sweden had are long gone, just lingering on in some databases. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Le 12.09.23 à 11:42, Maarten Deen a écrit : does the bot take external data of objects where the covid19 opening hours are the same? looking at the created_by, it import external data into osm I have posted a comment to resquest the link to the wiki page about it ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
There seems to have been an automated edit to add opening_hours:covid19 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening%20hours:covid19?uselang=en-GB=same. I'm a bit curious how this can be an automated edit. Or does the bot take external data of objects where the covid19 opening hours are the same? And are covid19 restrictions still in place in Sweden? Regards, Maarten > Op 12-09-2023 10:49 CEST schreef Mateusz Konieczny via talk > : > Sep 12, 2023, 10:41 by marc_m...@mailo.com: > > > Le 12.09.23 à 08:23, Snusmumriken via talk a écrit : > > > > > I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed > > > a tag on an object back and forth once a day > > > > > > > id of the object ? > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141053368 > > for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8537345577 > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Le 12.09.23 à 10:49, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit : Sep 12, 2023, 10:41 by marc_m...@mailo.com: Le 12.09.23 à 08:23, Snusmumriken via talk a écrit : I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed a tag on an object back and forth once a day id of the object ? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141053368 thanks for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8537345577 the other side of the conflict doesn't seem to be a AE but an import (missing changeset tag) https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141087019 created_by=ExernalClinicInfoSync.sln by Distrikstandvården AB ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Sep 12, 2023, 10:41 by marc_m...@mailo.com: > Le 12.09.23 à 08:23, Snusmumriken via talk a écrit : > >> I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed >> a tag on an object back and forth once a day >> > > id of the object ? > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141053368 for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8537345577 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Le 12.09.23 à 08:23, Snusmumriken via talk a écrit : I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed a tag on an object back and forth once a day id of the object ? Shouldn't they be amended with something like; "A bot should not edit the same object twice" the bots do what they're told and their edits must have been approved beforehand so the problem seems to be that the community has asked for 2 contradictory things or that there's a bug or that there's a reason (I'm thinking, for example, of deleting useless tags or correcting recurring errors that can occur more than once on the same object, even if it's rare), or someone is doing an buggy unpproved AE I regularly make mechanical edits and it would obviously be practical to have a warning (and not a ban) for objects modified 2x however I can't think of any concrete cases where this would be anything other than a false positive ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Sep 12, 2023, 09:45 by talk@openstreetmap.org: > Well, this one came to light only because it happened in a big city > where a local mapper happened to notice it. Who knows if there are > other bot wars going on in Siberia or elsewhere where there are very > few local mappers. > To be less cryptic, it happened with bot edit I was running, and thanks for spotting this. I am always investigating some sample of bot edits so I would notice it sooner or later. Especially once initial run would complete and only new edits would appear (but again thanks for spotting it and allowing it to fix relatively quickly!) > And I don't mean that a bot never should be allowed to edit an object a > second time, just that the bot owner should have to review it if that > bot tries to change an object twice. > note that at least for contervandalism bots it still makes no sense, in cases when vandal attacked again or all edits from some user are rolled back also, if new bot edit is distinct from old one (but maybe I should add detector of such case into my code? though that is first time it happened...) > On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 09:16 +0200, Casper Kersten wrote: > >> I think we can rely on reason and logic here instead of extra >> guidelines. This was obviously not intentional and we don't need to >> write guidelines against it. >> >> (Re-sent because I accidentally replied privately instead of to the >> mailing list) >> >> Op di 12 sep 2023 om 08:30 schreef Snusmumriken via talk >> : >> > I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that >> > changed >> > a tag on an object back and forth once a day. It stopped once I >> > pointed >> > it out. >> > >> > These are the guidelines for bots >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct >> > >> > Shouldn't they be amended with something like; "A bot should not >> > edit >> > the same object twice" >> > >> > ___ >> > talk mailing list >> > talk@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Well, this one came to light only because it happened in a big city where a local mapper happened to notice it. Who knows if there are other bot wars going on in Siberia or elsewhere where there are very few local mappers. And I don't mean that a bot never should be allowed to edit an object a second time, just that the bot owner should have to review it if that bot tries to change an object twice. On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 09:16 +0200, Casper Kersten wrote: > I think we can rely on reason and logic here instead of extra > guidelines. This was obviously not intentional and we don't need to > write guidelines against it. > > (Re-sent because I accidentally replied privately instead of to the > mailing list) > > Op di 12 sep 2023 om 08:30 schreef Snusmumriken via talk > : > > I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that > > changed > > a tag on an object back and forth once a day. It stopped once I > > pointed > > it out. > > > > These are the guidelines for bots > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct > > > > Shouldn't they be amended with something like; "A bot should not > > edit > > the same object twice" > > > > ___ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
I think we can rely on reason and logic here instead of extra guidelines. This was obviously not intentional and we don't need to write guidelines against it. (Re-sent because I accidentally replied privately instead of to the mailing list) Op di 12 sep 2023 om 08:30 schreef Snusmumriken via talk < talk@openstreetmap.org>: > I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed > a tag on an object back and forth once a day. It stopped once I pointed > it out. > > These are the guidelines for bots > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct > > Shouldn't they be amended with something like; "A bot should not edit > the same object twice" > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
I recently happen to witness an edit war between two bots, that changed a tag on an object back and forth once a day. It stopped once I pointed it out. These are the guidelines for bots https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct Shouldn't they be amended with something like; "A bot should not edit the same object twice" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
