texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 13:11:17 - Issue 688
Topics (messages 9895 through 9905):
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9895 by: Lyndon Tiu
9896 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9897 by: jerryatkin.aol.com
9899 by: Terri Sprouse
9900 by: Terri Sprouse
texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 14:18:13 - Issue 689
Topics (messages 9906 through 9920):
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9906 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9907 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9908 by: Lyndon Tiu
9909 by: Keith Goggin
9910 by:
At 10:56 PM 1/15/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:
Let's see. I'm supposed to pay $20 a year _and_ print my own copies of
the Texas Caver? No thanks, I'll pass on that.
$20 is little more than the cost of 2 6-packs of good beer. That
money should NOT be looked upon as subscription money but as a
At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
The tiered membership and wontan distribution issues are another
set of issues we can deal with separately.
Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription
without TSA membership. It would be worth it not having to deal with
all
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:18:28 -0600 gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
The tiered membership and wontan distribution issues are another
set of issues we can deal with separately.
Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription
I am registered and download all 4 issues... ( Super high Speed connection
here 40 mb down and 20 mb up) But I get an error on opening? Says there was
a problem opening this document. I get it open only no color pictures...I am
running Adobe 7.0
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
I see Terri's point about not having the CAVER able to be electronically
distributed all over, and folks losing their privacy. I know she gets up to all
kinds of mischief on trips she doesn't want her conservative employers to know
about! :)
Could we make it where it's read only (not
At the meeting Sunday morning (and it was a very large turnout), I don't
recall one person being in favor of raising dues.
We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed TC.
We'll see how the response for
I learned something a LOONG time ago in one of the boring training
meeting we had here at work and it applies to a LOT of aspects in life:
NEVER WRITE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE UNCOMFORTABLE HAVING OTHERS READ
ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE PAPER.
If you'll go by this simple edict,
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed TC.
Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 - that
everyone
So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars a
year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your LED
light either.
Amen to that. Hell, I'll even pay double so some poor caver doesn't have to
cave in the dark. An extra 10 bucks a year is
No, Lyndon.
We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website.
By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.
If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
We will gauge
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:11:18 pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote:
Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web
site?
Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc),
once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of
Tiered dues -
A big reason is that this whole thing is run by volunteers. Mark happens to
publish often, but give it a few years and things will change. The people
who maintain the membership lists also volunteer and have high turnover.
Some are really detail oriented and others are not. Most
re: tiered memberships:
Cascade Grotto (Seattle area north) has had lower dues for electronic
Cascade Caver (.jpg) for many, many years and it seems to work just fine. I
save all mine to a file. If my computer dies or disappears I'm pretty sure
finding replacement Cascade Cavers will be a
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:40:24 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
Ah, oh. OK.
I just signed my rights way when I did that. I didn't even know what I was
doing.
We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or not
you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to all paid
members.
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com
To: Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca;
So if people made a mistake and signed up not realizing they would be foregoing
their hardcopy of the TC, can they unsign up (down?)?
-Denise From: mark.al...@l-3com.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:40:24 -0600
To: l...@alumni.sfu.ca; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers]
The
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:47:43 -0600 jran...@gmail.com wrote:
Keeping the TSA simple is important.
+1
--
Lyndon Tiu
-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For
We can look into this option, Keith.
Another item for your To Do List, huh. Butch?
Thanks,
Mark
From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re:
Send a message to Butch, Denise.
Thanks,
Mark
From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
So if people made a mistake and signed up not
Mark,
I want to be able to have both hard paper and electronic copies.
I did not know when I registered yesterday that I would be giving up
the paper copies. If that is the case then unsign unregister me.
Also And I know it take lots of time, but are all of the previous
copies of
have both hard paper and electronic copies.
all of the previous copies of TC going to be archived in PDF format and
made available
Pandoras box has opened!
Now you have a lot of work to do Mark!
All this in the name of saving money, means you will loose a lot of sweat.
--
Lyndon Tiu
Lyndon said:
Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web site?
Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc),
once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of the
text is transferred from the TSA web server
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:30:48 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
... Generally that cached copy is hidden away
deep in some obscure system or program folder, but if you can find it,
you can copy it. I used to to that with YouTube videos, which do not
have an obvious mechanism for saving them.
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy. Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway). Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list.
I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com.
I respectfully request your permission to add
ccoll...@swca.com
to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing list.
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list.
I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com.
I respectfully request your permission to add
vcoll...@pape-dawson.com
to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:06 AM, texascavers-h...@texascavers.com wrote:
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list.
I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com.
I respectfully request your permission to
texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 16:51:44 - Issue 690
Topics (messages 9921 through 9934):
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9921 by: Lyndon Tiu
9926 by: Minton, Mark
9927 by: Lyndon Tiu
9930 by: Butch Fralia
TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
9922 by:
I am pleased there is so much interest in the Caver, and am hoping that
interest is also in the TSA. There are lots of new potential projects in the
TSA, and much ongoing work with current projects. There are volunteer
positions available, chairs that are unfilled, and articles that need to
Yep, I agree again. I do hope, however, that none of my positive
solutions to the many problems are thought of as complaints. I don't
complain--I fix things, or offer solutions for others to implement if
it is outside my domain. This problem has such a simple solution that
I'm embarassed for
At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
have both hard paper and electronic copies.
People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:
People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:37:13 -0600 gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
have both hard paper and electronic copies.
... and I'm perfectly happy with my electronic copy. I was just quoting
somebody else.
People can print their own damned hard copies! That
I have been reading all of the controversy and also have an opinion. I have
enjoyed receiving The Caver and its color pictures. However, I have access to a
color copier at my office where I receive the posts and can print any issues
that I would choose to save. I would believe that all members
Extremely well put, Fritz, and I wished I had explained this as
succinctly as you just did!
When ~95% of our budget is used to print the TC, it's a little hard to
sponsor other worthwhile projects and activities.
Going electronic will allow us to do this.
If you had been at the meeting, you
Dang, Gill!
We need your energy, logic, common sense, and enthusiasm.
Heck, I'll even sponsor your membership in the TSA!
Whaddya say?
Mark
-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:37 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right?
--Mixon
--
You may reply to the address
Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
Mark
-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
Let's see. Currently the TSA spends,
Do y'all need a break from the chatter concerning the TC and actually
want to have fun and go caving, like I do!?
This is just a reminder that the Girl Scouts of the Austin/SA area are
once again having their large Council wide campout at CBSP this weekend.
If you have nothing to do
Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is
that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and
digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of
printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital
publication on line. I
-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net
Sent: Jan 16, 2009 9:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is
that it CAN be printed out (in color, no
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.
So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the
publication? I've heard this question at
I would also say that there are those of us no longer in Texas, not a TSA
member (but former TSA for many years), who are still interested in what goes
on there. Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:36:57 -0600 To:
texascavers@texascavers.com From: gi...@worldnet.att.net Subject:
[Texascavers] TEXAS
Charles, You said
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver,
then a lot of the memberships will drop.Maybe it's time for TSA to revisit
their mission statement. I assume that's what that
For the scientifically inclined, thereare recentarticles in the journal Science about the mechanism by which calcium carbonate crystallizes. If you do not have access to Science, you may be able to get it free by registering at http://www.sciencemag.org/subscriptions/indiv_register.dtl.
Stable
At 11:48 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
Subliminal message. Translated:
You will pay $20 and use electronic version.
I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an
online copy of The CAVER available to anyone
Gill, I'll match it, $100 a year!
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
At 11:48 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
Subliminal message. Translated:
You will pay $20 and use electronic
At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.
On the contrary. Use The CAVER to promote membership among those who
Totally agreed, you make very good points Gill.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
Geeze!!! Turn my back for a moment and my email is, like, Totally Clogged!
Perhaps you can cut this thread down to continuing with concise meaningful
comments.
Dirt Doc.
Or more importantly would be worth seeing?
Just found out Im going to Orlando for the week of Feb 1st.
Matt Turner
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
accepting it. - Aristotle
Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts
Sleazeweasle lives in dem dar parts.
Joe
j...@oztotl.com
Sent while mobile
On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Matt Turner kat...@yahoo.com wrote:
Or more importantly would be worth seeing?
Just found out Im going to Orlando for the week of Feb 1st.
Matt Turner
It is the mark of an educated
texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 22:49:02 - Issue 691
Topics (messages 9935 through 9957):
The Caver and the TSA
9935 by: Linda Palit
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes
9936 by: Minton, Mark
9937 by: Lyndon Tiu
9941 by: Fritz Holt
9942
At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the coffers, not
take it out.:)
-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic
The TSA has over 6k in the bank...
Joe
j...@oztotl.com
Sent while mobile
On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com
wrote:
Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the
coffers, not take it out.:)
-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger
That's good news. I can't keep track of which caving organization purchases
caves but I am guessing that it would take more than that to make a down
payment on another one or to pay off an existing one. In that sense, I doubt
that we are overly funded. I am amazed that we can do as much as we
At 02:56 PM 1/16/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
Gill, I'll match it, $100 a year!
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
You will pay $20 and use electronic version.
I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an online
copy of The CAVER
My likely futile attempt at changing the subject:
I cannot ravel the last 50 posts and remain unstupid, irregardless.
PRINT THESE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contronym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contronym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-contradicting_words_in_English
Russ
You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.
Butch
From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:49 AM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; 'Keith Goggin'; 'Lyndon Tiu';
texascavers@texascavers.com
Thanks Butch!
People can print their own damned hard copies!
Here's an idea - let's just pool a portion of the dues money and communally buy
a good quality color printer (since that is a fairly expensive iten for a lot
of individuals and probably most of us don't have one) and then mail it
Butch,
You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.
It still doesn't work right for me. Virginia is now accepted as my
state, but when I hit Confirm Registration, the same registration screen pops
back up. There are no errors
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
There is also some strange code at the top of the registration form:
 (probably irrelevant).

Subliminal message. Translated:
You will pay $20 and use electronic version.
--
Lyndon Tiu
I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small
increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that the
response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
Fritz
-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Be careful what you wish for, Fritz!8^)
Mark
-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM
To: Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug
fixes
If it is to be increased, we should develop a methodology for future
increases. Lets have the price held constant in real terms by having
the normal price be determined by the CPI (consumer price index) and
then round to the nearest dollar.
That way, A) there wont be 20 years without a price
George-Paul,
Regardless of how the annual dues proposal is calculated, it still equates to a
dues increase of which I am in favor.
Fritz
-Original Message-
From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:43 PM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: Fritz
Mark,
It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I
forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a
syntax error.
The strange characters are a result of PHP and MySQL database commands. The
way around it is to change the character
Butch,
It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I
forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a
syntax error.
Unfortunately, not completely. Now I'm getting a state selection error
again for Virginia. VA shows up as my
Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational
nonetheless.
The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very
important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While
it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this
I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for
Mexican Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-
stitched in a cover printed both sides in full color and 24 inside bw
pages (_four more_ than are in the most recent TC), the quote for
quantity between 150
Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
doing the leg work.
However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
from
Disagree.
Many cavers prefer a hard copy. They want to read it as they do most
magazines.
Those printing and mailing costs seem very high to me. A 5 page 8.5 x 11
newsletter with envelope can be mailed for 42 cents. The paper is cheap.
Preston
=
-
It doesn't appear so, the TSA membership voted othewise.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Preston Forsythe pns_...@bellsouth.net wrote:
Disagree.
Many cavers prefer a hard copy. They want to read it as they do most
magazines.
Those printing and mailing costs seem very high to me. A 5 page
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