RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Abd, The answer to the question "why there aren't any isothermal curves in the phase change area?" is exactly the consequence of your experiments with the steam calculator: at constant pressure the temperature does not change. So if you change one the other follows linearly. If you look on Wikip

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 07:34 PM 8/5/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/8/6 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > Boilers, however, do not ordinarily have liquid water spilling over the edge > of a hole in the side of the boiler, at a pace determined by the difference > between the pumped rate and the vaporization rate. If there i

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 06:22 PM 8/5/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: Ps. Abd ul-Rahman, be careful when insulting chemists. I'm (bio-)chemist too and I know everything about the steam, since I have cooked pasta when I was 12-years old. And also physical chemistry covers rather well all that are related to thermodynamics

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 04:55 PM 8/5/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. > Dear Abd, I us

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/6 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > Boilers, however, do not ordinarily have liquid water spilling over the edge > of a hole in the side of the boiler, at a pace determined by the difference > between the pumped rate and the vaporization rate. If there is substantial > steam (my very rough estimate is

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 11:07 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: No, not a circular demonstration. Steam is dry because P=1bar, and T>100 cosidering that the measured RH=0. Where is the "measured RH" found to be zero? Daniel, you are very far off the wall here. What you've done is to accept Galantini's statement,

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 11:04 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: This is the reason why you need to know only one measured variable from E-Cat and that is the temperature of steam. You need also RH to make sure there is no mist. RH does not vary with mist. Mist is at RH of 100%. As is saturated steam. No matter wh

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 11:00 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: The probe can work util 150C. It doesn't need to be that one that measure pressure directly. that's right. However, how are you going to measure temperature of 100 C, and the pressure, with a pressure probe only rated for 60 C? Sure, you can measure

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 10:51 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: There is no need for literature. If you have 1bar or less and any temperature above 100C, with 0% RH, you have no liquid water in any kind of gas, even if that gas is steam. Actually, if the gas is 100% steam, the RH is 100%. Yes. The statement is tru

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 10:41 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: Yes, he measured the pressure. He doesn't need an instrument specific for that. You don't need an instrument for every data you want to find. For example, even in any big particle colliders you don't see all of the resulting colliding particles. You rec

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/6 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > At 10:17 AM 8/5/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: >> >> Any probe that measures temperature in boiling water system measures >> also pressure. That is because boiling point of water is directly >> depended on pressure. > > Jouni, you can't see the forest for the trees. Su

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 10:29 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: By knowing the RH, you will know the steam quality, adding temperature and output, you will find the pressure inside the chamber. That's nonsense. Relative humidity maxes at 100%. The device used doesn't even reach that level. Steam quality has litt

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 10:17 AM 8/5/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: Any probe that measures temperature in boiling water system measures also pressure. That is because boiling point of water is directly depended on pressure. Jouni, you can't see the forest for the trees. Sure, temperature will depend on pressure. But

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 09:38 AM 8/5/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: Let me get this simple to you. You are WRONG. We can stop right here. Daniel, you have sent this message to an entire mailing list. There is nothing in your message that indicates to whom or to what you are responding. There is nothing in your messa

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/5 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax : > The device has a pressure sensor in it, > the pressure sensor is not in the probe. It's looking like Galantini assumed > he was getting a pressure reading from the probe he'd placed in the E-cat, > hence his error. > This is too simple explanation! Rossi arranged p

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Anyway i searched all possible reference of text written on the internet by Galantini about the e-cat measurements and he does not mention steam tables nor Mollier diagrams but psychrometric tables which i do not understand how to use with steam... does anyone have a clue? mic Il giorno 05/ago/201

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

> > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. > Dear Abd, I use like this: Take the isobaric curve; Find intersection with temperature. Now you can read the steam quality using the cl

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 08:58 AM 8/5/2011, Mattia Rizzi wrote: Galantini said that reads grams of liquid water / m^3 of vapor on display of HD37AB1347. From Levi’s report, Galantini used an HP474ACR probe, that measure RH and temperature. In the 2nd email, Galantini claim that he measured the preassure inside th

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

On 11-08-05 11:00 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: Also it is even more impossible that steam temperature is above boiling point of local pressure. Heavens, Jouni, where have you been? That silly argument leads directly to the conclusion that the atmosphere can't be any hotter than the temperature

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

At 01:43 PM 8/4/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: I cannot find where Galantini declared that he used the RH reading on the datalogger. Did he declare that? He used the g/m^3 reading, which is a calculated reading. I believe that this reading does consider pressure, if the information is avail

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

The high powered tests were done with a lot of liquid water instead of showing steam.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

I just read about relative humidity. It I was wrong about the measurement of RH. It will be 1 all the time given the measured steam above, without, is already saturated steam. So, only the T will make sense.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/5 Daniel Rocha : > I am talking about the need for the RH quantity, > to make sure that there isn't enough liquid mass to invalidate the output > power. This kind of setup, that there is no liquid mass with steam, is impossible, because it is not stable. Water inflow must always be greater

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

No, you misunderstood me. I am talking about the need for the RH quantity, to make sure that there isn't enough liquid mass to invalidate the output power.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/5 Daniel Rocha : >> This is the reason why you need to know only one measured variable >> from E-Cat and that is the temperature of steam. > > You need also RH to make sure there is no mist. > Mist does not contribute for the pressure and hence the temperature of boiling water and steam. Th

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

But if you say RH=0, it is dry. If there is mist it will point a non null RH, if there is bubbling, there will probably be a short circuit and the value of RH will saturate or very wildly.

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless 2011/8/5 Mattia Rizzi : They claims that tehy have measured a temperature > 100 C degrees and a pression equal to ambient preassure, so they claims that the steam is dry. They may claim wh

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

No, not a circular demonstration. Steam is dry because P=1bar, and T>100 cosidering that the measured RH=0.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

> > This is the reason why you need to know only one measured variable > from E-Cat and that is the temperature of steam. You need also RH to make sure there is no mist.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Daniel you lost me a cople messages ago. Is this a circular demostration ? *The steam is dry because P = 1bar and P = 1 bar because the steam is dry ?* Is this you saying ? P, T and Dryness are three values tied together by one law (mollier diagram) tho know one you need the other two. We do know

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

The probe can work util 150C. It doesn't need to be that one that measure pressure directly.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/5 Mattia Rizzi : > They claims that tehy have measured a temperature > 100 C degrees and a > pression equal to ambient preassure, so they claims that the steam is dry. They may claim whatever they want, but it is impossible that there is ambient pressure, since E-Cat is closed system, exclu

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

MENT LIKE THE E-CAT >any temperature above 100C That’s the only measuremnt correct, temperature. ANd with a 100.1-101 temperature, there will be likely a very WET steam From: Daniel Rocha Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:51 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer fr

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

There is no need for literature. If you have 1bar or less and any temperature above 100C, with 0% RH, you have no liquid water in any kind of gas, even if that gas is steam.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Yes, he measured the pressure. He doesn't need an instrument specific for that. You don't need an instrument for every data you want to find. For example, even in any big particle colliders you don't see all of the resulting colliding particles. You reconstruct the the trajectories and the energy a

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

*Literature. From: Mattia Rizzi Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Again, Galantini said that he *measured* the preassure. There’s a big difference between a calculation

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

: Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless By knowing the RH, you will know the steam quality, adding temperature and output, you will find the pressure inside the chamber.

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

ure. -Messaggio originale- From: Jouni Valkonen Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:17 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Any probe that measures temperature in boiling water system measures also pressure. That

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

> By knowing the RH, you will know the steam quality, adding temperature and output, you will find the pressure inside the chamber.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Any probe that measures temperature in boiling water system measures also pressure. That is because boiling point of water is directly depended on pressure. - Jouni 2011/8/5 Mattia Rizzi : > Daniel, *you* are wrong! > The ONLY *preassure* probe that can be connected is P37AB147*** and the > *

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

: Friday, August 05, 2011 3:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Let me get this simple to you. You are WRONG. There is the probe and there is the instrument itself. The instrument itself just responds to

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Let me get this simple to you. You are WRONG. There is the probe and there is the instrument itself. The instrument itself just responds to whatever analogical electric signals the probe sends. And it is basically a calculator and makes stores this signuals The instrument is called ***HD37AB134**

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

i professori svedesi è stato il seguente: Testo 176 H2 codice 0572 1766. Distinti saluti. From: Michele Comitini Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:43 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless I cannot find w

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

I cannot find where Galantini declared that he used the RH reading on the datalogger. Did he declare that? Maybe he used the probe because it measures T in the correct range up to 150°C. If he knew the pressure at the point where the probe was then with steam tables or Mollier diagram the quali

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

to measure RH. -Mark -Original Message- From: Mattia Rizzi [mailto:mattia.ri...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless > RH is simply the amount of wate

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

04, 2011 4:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Was RH measurement 'flawed'? So long as the probe is rated to operate above 100°C, it should provide a valid RH reading, PROVIDED you let the

RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

the RH sensor comes up to the steam temperature. -Mark -Original Message- From: Mattia Rizzi [mailto:mattia.ri...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Mattia Rizzi wrote: What claims? The pump that erogate 3 times much more water than the maximux rate wrote on the datasheet? The pump was not used in the 18-hour test. Or the “5kW steam” that look exaclty like a 600W steam? You cannot judge steam quality by looking at the steam. In any ca

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

>Regarding the RH meter -- that's irrelevant. The claims stand without it. What claims? The pump that erogate 3 times much more water than the maximux rate wrote on the datasheet? Or the “5kW steam” that look exaclty like a 600W steam? >But I don't anything wrong with an instrument that works

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

2011/8/4 Michele Comitini > From Essen report we can expect that they used a pt100 probe: > > > http://www.testo.co.uk/online/abaxx-?$part=PORTAL.GBR.ProductCategoryDesk.active-area.catalog.ProductDetail.details.probes > > works up to 550° C (the value reported by Essen) > > now to calculate the

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

>From Essen report we can expect that they used a pt100 probe: http://www.testo.co.uk/online/abaxx-?$part=PORTAL.GBR.ProductCategoryDesk.active-area.catalog.ProductDetail.details.probes works up to 550° C (the value reported by Essen) now to calculate the x (dryness factor) from a Mollier diagra

Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

I hope Galantini uses T and P and T is correct. Some of those probes measure also P and that is correct too. Looking at a Mollier diag you know the dryness. If Galantini did not measure P in the outlet or he used RH by the probe, well he has a problem! or he knows something we do not know... mi

[Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless

Delta ohm's engineer say that the entalphy is calculated by the instrument, knwoing RH and temperature of gas. This is in accordance with the manual of the instrument. SInce RH measurement is flawed, all other derived measurements are flawed too. -Messaggio originale- From: Michele Co