Re: ShopTalk: Lie Angle Progression

[Mark A Patton]

Before I lost my L/L machine (I gues someone needed it more than me), my practice was:
Measure and fit lie for every club being built after assembly.
Honestly I feel the progression isn't as near important as that the lie is correct for the golfer and his/her swing for each club.

Takes more time, but I charged for it.

Mark

Harry F. Schiestel wrote:

Hi Arnie and Charlie

 

Our third year in business we broke the bank and bought a Mitchell Loft and Lie machine with putter attachment. 

 

I know the standard progression for lie and we hand select and dial in based on; component wts, cpm, swt., NBP, etc. > all the good stuff.

We actually bend loft and lie of iron and wedge heads prior to cutting the shafts to final length.  Found to be easier and little more accurate.

When I check lie for a customer I ONLY use the 5 iron, and ASSUME a lie progression of 1 degree change for each 1/2 inch length change.

My question is a little different.  Sorry for not making myself clear.  I suspect some clubmakers use 2 or 3 clubs for checking lie angles.

Lets say the 2 clubs are a 4 iron and an 8 iron, and standard lie is 59 and 63 respectively for standard length steel.

From the lie board its determined the guy/gal needs 60 to 63 (delta 3 degrees) over the 5 clubs = 0.75 degree lie progression.

Could this be normal, or do you almost always get 1 deg / 0.5 inch, when using more than 1 club for lie checking a customer?

 

Then I look at a Golfweek column dated Sept. 2000 titled "What's in Tiger's Bag".  There is what they stated for his Titleist clubs:

Their length is graduated down in half-inch increments from a 39" 2 iron. 2I = 21 degrees loft, 60 degree lie (about 1 degree upright),

Irons:        2I = 21.60  /  3I = 24.61  /  4I = 27.62  /  5I = 30.63  /  6I = 33.63 1/2  /  7I = 37.64  /  8I = 41.64  /  9I = 45.65  /  PW = 50.65

Wedges:  SW = Vokey 258.08 bent to 256.06 (06 denotes bounce)  /  LW = Vokey 260.06  The article didn't mention if same length as 9I?

From Tiger's club data, the lie angle only changes 1 degree (and not 2 degrees) from his 5 iron to his 7 iron = 0.5 degree lie progression.

 

Now to get back to my first question.  Why does Tiger need only 1 degree lie change from 5I to 7I?  I suspect a lot of other golfers may not

be based on the 1 degree per change in length per 0.5 inches.  Checking only a 5 iron a clubmaker would never find this out, and assume

all to be fine.  For those clubmakers who have checked multiple clubs on a lie board, does 1 DEGREE PER 0.5 INCH HOLD UP IN PRACTICE?

This was the basic question I wanted answered.  Not too concerned about Joe Average, they can't tell a couple of degrees anyway.

Arnie, Charlie, and others, what have you found with the more elite (around scratch or better) type of golfer?

 

I build all wedges the same length as the 9 iron.  Prefer to buy iron heads with 8 iron loft at 40 deg. (getting harder to find with no cheated lofts).

 

Just finishing a set of Dynacraft PC3 irons for a guy.  First time using this head and probably my last.  Book says 431 stainless steel but these suckers where the hardest yet to bend.  Then I bent his Dynacraft Pro Wedges (also 431) and went way too far on the first bend (soft as butter).  PC3's needed a 10# sledge hammer and the Pro Wedges needed a 0.5# tack hammer for the hosel bending bar.  No more PC3's for me.

 

The PC3's and Pro Wedge's with ProSoft Inserts will be delivered on Monday.  Without grips all swingweights within 0.2 points, all shafts aligned, loft and lie within 1/4 degree, - 1 cpm off on frequency for only one club, otherwise on a perfect frequency slope.  Arnie, is that close enough to be considered "assembled with nothing less than perfect craftmanship"?

 

Thank You and Cha-Ching (the sound of money as you deposit it in the cash box)!

 

Thanks HarryS

www.Golf54.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 10:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lie Angle Progression

When I've looked at component catalogue's some vary by 58 - 63 (5 deg) or 57 - 64 (7 deg) from the 2 Iron through to PW.
For the bulk of the players you fit 3 Iron to PW

Lie angle of 2 iron 57*, 3 iron 58*, 4 iron 59*, 5 iron 60* as you can see each iron going up in iron number adds one degree of lie angle. TILL YOU GET TO 64* 9 iron and all wedges are the same lie angle and length as the 9 iron. UNLESS YOU BUILD THE WEDGES PROGRESSIVELY SHORTER.  The key is that for each half inch in length reduction the lie angle increases by one degree.  Keep this in mind when you lengthen or shorten clubs from "standard length" of 37.5" steel shafted 5 iron and 38" graphite shafted 5 iron. YOU MUST HAVE A LOFT/LIE MACHINE!  And when clubs are lengthened or shortened you will have to adjust the lie for the golfer. No, you can't just adjust the length because of the asterisk on the spec. chart for the heads that says *+/- 1 degree (note small print). Trust no catalog -- invest in loft/lie machine. Don't waste your money on a machine to measure 'cause you still need a loft/lie machine to bend and the loft/lie machine also measures.

Check head weight progression, freq. match shafts, spline shafts, weigh grips, weigh shafts, calculate and check swing weights, install prosoft inserts if desired, use the same length of grip tape, polish the ferrules, assemble with nothing less than perfect craftsmanship, and adjust loft and lie.

Next customer please. Hey you, wait your turn! Clubs will be ready tomorrow. Will that be cash, check or charge?  THANK YOU!

Arnie

Harry

   I only use those stated mfg. lie angles as a stating point. When actually measured they are usually off by one or two degrees. During my fitting process I have golfers hit a 5 iron and adjust that to a perfect lie for them and use that length, lie and SW I have chosen as a template for the set. When the customer picks up the clubs they must then hit the full set for lie and loft and then are bent to the specs that get perfect lie angles and loft angles that produce the perfect yardage increments between clubs for that particular client and set makeup. 
  FWIW

    Charlie B

Hi Arnie

Based on each iron getting progressively shorter or longer by 1/2 inch, does this equate to 1 degree lie angle increments?

When I've looked at component catalogue's some vary by 58 - 63 (5 deg) or 57 - 64 (7 deg) from the 2 Iron through to PW.

For the bulk of the players you fit 3 Iron to PW, what is the typical lie ange change over the 8 clubs?

Thanks HarryS

www.Golf54.com