tests! do I have to spell it out for you?
> -----Original Message----- > From: James Osbourne, Holmes [mailto:a...@cybermesa.com] > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 3:59 PM > To: silver-list@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: CS>Commercial Product Reports > > > I prefer my teats in-vivo. > > JOH > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Quinto [mailto:squi...@natural-immunogenics.com] > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 11:01 AM > To: silver-list@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: CS>Commercial Product Reports > > > See my replies interspersed below.... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frank Key [mailto:fr...@strsoft.com] > > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:15 PM > > > > You presuppose that in vitro tests have some relevance to what colloidal > > silver does in the body. It clearly does not. In the body there > > are chloride > > ions that render silver ions into silver chloride that has no known > > antibacterial properties. > > So, pray tell, what are in-vitro teats for....? > > > > > If one were really interested in testing efficacy, the tests would be > > conducted in a solution whose chemical components closely > > simulate blood serum. > > No, if one were really interested [and had the capability] one would go to > in-vivo.... > > > > > > Having spoken with one of the scientists at Malvern Instruments > > today, it > > > was made quite clear to me that the Zetasizer is NOT intended > > for particle > > > characterization, only size distribution and for "bulk > > analysis" at that! > > > .....ie. for distribution of particles of greater size than > > those found in a > > > fine colloid. The machine may be spec'd down to 2nm at the > > small end, but > > > he [the scientist] was reluctant to say how near that end it > > can accurately > > > get..... > > > > Please provide the name of the Malvern scientist you spoke with. > > The gentleman is Henryk Kraurup > > > If there are 2 nm particles in the colloid, the Zetasizer has no problem > > finding them. > > The scales don't even start [on the products you chose] below 3.7nm -- and > there is "0" data smaller than 27nm shown! > > > > > I have prepared a sample colloid having such particles and have > > run the size > > distribution plot to demonstrate it. See the plot at: > > > > http://www.silver-colloids.com/Misc/Smalltest.html > > My comments were directed to the reports you had previously published on > your website, not something just concocted to rebut an argument! > > > > > > Furthermore, he opined that TEM is a very useful complement -- > > how did he > > > put it? "a valuable supplement" -- to the Zetasizer, esp. for particle > > > characterization AND measurement of nanometer sized particles, > > and for all > > > such particles that are visible by TEM but may NOT be to a > > Zetasizer. The > > > Malvern instrument does not present itself as for Particle > > Characterization. > > > > A TEM is useful to observer small particles ONLY in solutions > > that do not have > > a high ionic content. For solutions with high ionic content (like > > most silver > > colloids), the formation of compounds during sample preparation > > creates a such > > vast number of particles of the compound that any meaningful > > observation of > > the original particles is improbable. More information on this is > > found on the > > > > I suspect that you failed to mention to the Malvern scientist that your > > solutions were highly ionic. > > No, Frank, I did not fail to do so.... I was specific with him in every > aspect of our conversation. > > > > > > > As happens often with colloids that contain very small particles, > > > 'particulate' configurations that appear to be spherical > > 'semi-agglomerates' > > > may present such a face to laser diffraction that they are taken for > > > particles when, in fact, they are not! .... This in clear > > juxtaposition to > > > the oceans of tiny particles that are just too small for the > > Zetasizer to > > > even 'see'. Though the semi-agglomerates may be actually > > comprised of the > > > same discrete particles that are similar to those circulating > > freely, the > > > Zetasizer sees ONLY the semi-agglomerates and takes them for giant > > > particles, while we see the discrete particles within them by TEM. > > > Exceptionally fine colloids [and the micrographs of them, such > > as those on > > > our website], are endowed with particles in the nanometer sized > > class, or > > > less, But these don't even show up on your printout as part of the > > > distribution curve! Because the Zetasizer cannot see them at all! > > > > You claim such particles exist. In my opinion, what your TEM > > images show is > > silver oxide particles formed when the water was evaporated from > > a solution > > containing a high concentration of silver ions. > > > > What the images prove, is that large quantities of silver > > compounds are formed > > when the water is evaporated from a highly ionic solution, and > > these particles > > can be observed on a TEM. > > Then, what do you suppose happened to the particles that were visible, if > only faintly, in the Tyndall prior to evaporation? > > > > > > So, then, the oceans of tiny particles that are > characteristic of a fine > > > colloid are the same that are seen in such spherical > > semi-agglomerates. That > > > they are drawn together, upon close examination and yet > remain distinct, > > > still repelling each other ....is an interesting phenomenon. > > They appear > > > only just able to resist the attractive force drawing them into such > > > spherical configurations by so remaining distinct. But the > > Zetasizer cannot > > > see or make this distinction. > > > > > > The Zetasizer cannot distinguish the discrete particles because > > they are too > > > small for it, just like the oceans of free particles. So it says the > > > distribution only includes the phantom image you are taking > literally to > > > mean they are particles of such and such size. Were these > > actual particles > > > of the magnitude your machine describes, the 'solution' > > harboring them would > > > have the characteristic colors appropriate to those large sizes > > -- namely > > > yellow to red to green. > > > > Distinguishing discrete particles is of no importance. What is > > important is > > determining the particle size distribution in the aggregate, > > which is the task > > for which the Zetasizer was designed. > > The Zetasizer was designed for particle sizing in "bulk analysis", NOT > particle characterization -- as I was informed. > > > > > > As well, the Malvern scientist could not assure me absolutely > > that there is > > > no magnetic energy created by the machine, and we already > know that the > > > finer the colloid, the more magnetic fields impact it..... > > > > > > I'm sorry, Frank, the analyses you present on your website -- > > of commercial > > > products -- just doesn't 'cut it'. We've also looked at the other cs > > > products you've "analysed", and find your similar FAILURES > with them as > > > well. And, really, if you reflect upon it, you just can't > > suggest there are > > > micron-sized particles in those colloids! First of all, > > because you could > > > almost see them with the naked eye, or at least with a laser > -- as they > > > would look like huge arc-lit sparklets in a laser beam. Which > > is patently > > > not so! And there would also be color ....which there is not! > > > > If you can see micron sized particles with the naked eye, you > > have the best > > eyes on earth, not to mention being able to see bacteria cells without a > > microscope. > > > > What looks "like huge arc-lit sparklets in a laser beam" is not > > micron sized > > particles, but very large aggregated particles that will soon > settle out. > > No, they don't settle out.... not in nine months, nor two years [as > concentration analysis by AAS confirms]. > > > > > > Furthermore, I do not doubt that the CSPro product has been > > characterized by > > > other TEM labs and is in possession of very different results > > than those you > > > have tendered for the size and distribution of its particles. > > I'm sure the > > > other 'analyses' will support my contention that there are alot > > of 2nm to > > > 5nm particles in iot, NONE of which you show. And the giant > > particles your > > > analysis describes -- 500nm -- do not exist except as the > > semi-agglomerates > > > previously described -- which your machine cannot discern. > > Yes, there are > > > particles in the 30 to 85nm range and they do show up, in > > quantity, and on > > > your size distribution, but the overall analysis is faulty AND clearly > > > lacking in comprehensiveness. > > > > Again, TEM images of highly ionic solutions are not usable for > > determining the > > size of particles in the original solution. > > > > Everyone is entitled to their opinion. > > > > In our opinion, our test suite provides the most objective > > evaluation of the > > physical properties of the colloids available anywhere. > > No, Frank, not evaluation; just raw data. No Qualitative > analysis whatever! > And no pH data.... > > > > > > With respect to the other cs product, your machine again misses > > the 2nm to > > > 5nm particles that are very present. And the gross sizes you > > describe are > > > once again those ephemeras, the semi-agglomerates. > > > Stephen > > > > See the Smalltest plot described above that demonstrates 2 nm > > particles are easily detectable. > > No, it doesn't demonstrate that that.... [As I said above] the > scales don't > even start below 3.7 nm > > > > > As I see it, your complaints center around the fact that our > > scientific equipment does not confirm the claims you make for > > your product. > > > > You claim to have nanometer size particles that the Zetasizer is > > unable to see, however, it is able to see the nanometer size > > particles in the smalltest colloid sample without a problem. > > > > This may have more to do with unsubstantiated claims than faulty > > scientific measurements. > > Again, not so, the Zetasizer does not "see" particles in the nanometer > range -- per Malvern Instruments. > > > > > We perform a uniform set of measurements in an exact and > > repeatable way on all the products tested in order to determine > > the physical properties of the colloidal solutions in an > > objective fashion. > > You're using the same old whip to beat a dead horse.... > > > > > The overwhelming majority of the feedback we are getting on the > > product analysis is positive. Those visiting our site have > > expressed their opinion that this type of objective analysis of > > greatly appreciated and long overdue. > > > > Over time we hope to test every available commercial product. > > > > Great, it's something to look forward to.... > > > > > frank key > > > > > > -- > > The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > > > > To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: > > silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com > > with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. > > > > To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com > > Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > > List maintainer: Mike Devour <mdev...@eskimo.com> > > > > > > >
