Gentlemen, please remember that 25 only requires the full forward flow if the provisions for it have been made in the riser or system. It does not require that you fail the system, or require the installation of full forward flow appliances it they don't exist. IF they are there use them and test the backflow, if not simply test the backflow as per ASSE or as required by the water AHJ and move on. (It's the same old question with all installations, Did the AHJ allow this at the time, or was this just an installation violation. The assumption is always that the AHJ allowed it, to do otherwise, if the owner says there have been no changes to the system would make inspections a confrontational situation, which would not improve the system reliability.)
Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Full-flow backflow test That's a good logical argument - but it involves too many steps to be enforced 'round here. Kind of like a political argument that can't fit on a bumper sticker. So if it's not enforced, the contractors aren't going to add the costs (a criticism of the system, not the contractors). As to section 8.17.4.6.1 ('08 ed): It does not require a test outlet - it requires a means of full-flow testing, which would be satisfied by someone saying that they'll just replace the check valve with a 4 in. elbow and pipe it to the outside on the day of testing...somehow. Mark A. Sornsin, PE Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Fargo, ND 701.280.8591 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Autry Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 2:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Full-flow backflow test It's required in 25, which is referenced in 13. So that makes it a requirement of 13 (NFPA 13, 2002 edition, 2.1) David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 200 psi test for components rated 175 Seeing as the backflow isn't a fire appliance, it makes sense that it's outside the scope of 13. I'm pretty sure the "full forward flow test" is a jurisdictional agency thing, i.e. NAVFAC or the serving water company. So fire officials might require it too - for peace of mind perhaps? BTW, you mitigate the clapper issue by turning the FDC body upside down. Duh. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:33 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 200 psi test for components rated 175 Don't most FDCs include clappers? How do you backwards flow out an FDC with clappers? And what do you do when the system has a high demand volume - say over 500 gpm? You'll have a tough time flowing it out an FDC even without clappers. Seems it's the responsibility of the engineer of record (when they're present) to require the test outlet so the owner has a means of meeting the requirements of NFPA 25 - even if the inspectors never end up testing the backflow. When there is not an engineer of record, and a contractor is asked to design/install a system per code, I don't believe there is any language in NFPA 13 that would force a contractor to install the test outlet. Mark A. Sornsin, PE Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Fargo, ND 701.280.8591 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregg Key Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 12:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 200 psi test for components rated 175 Yep, that could be the reason it is shown. Yea Matt, sorta trick question, We have installed a few wall hydrants at Military bases. Funny thing is that they do there own inspections and they don't follow NFPA 25 that requires an annual forward flow on the backflows. So the only systems in our area that do have them , are not being used. OK while we are at it, how many NFPA 25 inspectors perform the required forward flow test annually? - _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
