You are so right. Currently, we have auto shop projects working for several area high schools and a community college campus. At least tow of them have offices and classrooms separated from the shop areas by a one-hour occupancy separation in which the users and the architect want fixed glazing, which we are protecting with window sprinkelrs. One the first one of these projects, the additional flow from 8 window sprinklers (at min. 20 GPM each) has forced upgrade of the riser and main sizing from 2-1/2 or 3" to 4". Project is estimated to be about 10% over budget for the line-item; architect wants to know why. When you add it all up, even with the larger piping and additional sprinklers we're still saving about $50,000 by using window sprinks in lieu of rated glazing. By doing this the "right" way, i.e. during the construction document phase, we have programmed these particular projects for success and I value the relationship with this particular client (same architect for all projects) because the "get it". The oongoing problem is that the architectural community wants to exploit the benefits of sprinkler systems in ways that were never possible before, like window sprinklers and other code trade ups, but they still want to adhere to the old deferred submittal delivery system. Can't have your cake and eat it too, right?
Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Water Supply Let's not mix those two terms to cavalierly Craig. If I have my layout technician hat on then I should be spacing heads per the rules of the hazard as specified by the designer. If I'm sizing pipe I should be doing so per calculations based on the water availability data given me by the designer. If I'm using special heads such as attic heads or the ones being discussed in this thread it should be based on direction from the designer. Never was I privy to the design team's criterion or basis of design. I don't know their overall concept. If THEY expected to have a two-hour rating for THEIR glass wall then THEY need to be cognizant of how that can be accomplished. If THEY decide to do it with sprinkler heads and don't adhere to the restrictions of the listing then THEY have screwed up. Unfortunately THEY don't do any of the above and I, the lowly layout technician, am forced to exceed my level of responsibility and pay grade and do design. And if I'm to take on the level of responsibility of designer I think I'd like commensurate pay. Surely I won't ever be allowed to sit in on design decisions at the front end where I can help make the design integrate smoothly rather than being a nay-sayer midway through the project mixing metaphors and throwing a wrench into the ointment. On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:32 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let's not use the term FPE but EXPERIENCED DESIGN/LAYOUT PROFESSIONAL. > > > There, I feel better now. ;) > > > DISCLAIMER: > "This comment is not intended to represent or refer to any person living or dead, employed or unemployed, educated or dumb as a country cow tipper." > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.ch2m.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:06 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Water Supply > > If we all follwed the basic steps and dropped our hot potatoes in the collective laps of he RDPs, and a few claims got paid under E&O, Victor O' > would start requiring FPEs on every spkr job. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:57 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Water Supply > > My sentiments exactly. We did notify the "design team" of the dilemma (tail vigorously wagging dog), politely. We didn't tell them that they couldn't build it because there is no specific sprinkler designed to fit the exact circumstance. > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic Sprinkler > Phoenix, AZ > > P.S. "My stomach get's all tight" perfect! > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Water Supply > > Ron: If the drawing say's "Rated wall" and you can obviously see that the mullions don't allow the TYCO Window sprinklers, as a "Dumb Contractor" > and > not the design professional, you'd have to rely on them having figured out what's required already. Maybe they bought that expensive rated glass? > Maybe > they got an exception? Or maybe they made a mistake? You've no way to know which at bid time, so if it turns out they screwed up, that's what their E&O insurance is for. > > When you say smart Architect, my stomach get's all tight. Let's be kind, and call them "The Design Professional Team" under the architects leadership. > The team may have elected not to involve a FPE, usually for financial reasons. As a result they are liable for that decision, and any resulting "Extra's" unless of course you were required by spec. to supply a FPE, and even then if you were, your scope was limited to NFPA 13, 14, 24 (Spec. > section --------) you still would not be liable for the design of the "Rated Window Wall". > > You don't have to tell them "What to Do" only that their design doesn't work as drawn. If they ask how to correct it, you can give your opinion as a "Non-Design Professional" and suggest they have an FPE help with the final design. > > Yeah I know this just endears you to the Owner and the "Team", but it sure beats taking it up the shorts! > > Thom McMahon, SET > Firetech, Inc. > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > P.O. Box 882136 > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > Tel: 970-879-7952 > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > A smart architect would have known there are limitations on windows and > glazing in rated construction. He should have been asking some > questions > before just "drawing up a drawing" and saying "make it so". > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the Architect/Engineer, Building Department, Fire Department and owner that they have to eliminate the doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of glass wall? And by the way, the next time you want to use a glass wall you have to check with Tyco? > > By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are issued and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to architecturally redesign the entire lobby area. > > Ron Fletcher > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
