Kevin, Related to "real world", "without regard to cost", and "doctoral dissertations", would you be willing to share some information about DOE Fire Hazard Analysis documentation? I'd very much like to correspond off-line on this topic. My DOE experience at this point is only 13 years but I believe one DOE year is equivalent to at least 5 normal years.
Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:31 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: non-rated door I would be very interested to see that report....as to "real world" I have been working in the DOE environment for the past 15 years and they are very much into compliance with the codes and standards without regard to cost. So "in the real world" is not much of a consideration here without somebody writing a doctoral dissertation on the alternative method. It can be ......well, interesting, we will say. As far as survival of any rated barrier, the "nominal" hour rating is only for the prescribed conditions of the test in a very controlled environment. "In the real world" you have varying fire loads, different fire dynamics than the E119 curve, construction variations in the wall/door/opening protection assembly, penetrations in walls that are not sealed/maintained, etc., etc., etc. Hey, this is fun Kevin Law, PE Bechtel National, Inc. Waste Treatment Project Fire Protection Engineering Work (509) 371-3280 Cell (509) 531-5715 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: non-rated door They ran sprinklers in the furnace for Tyco Window sprinklers. Temps did not reach specified values but they deemed it passable based on the gas flow rate and complete combustion. Or so I recall reading the report over 10 years ago now. For some reason I think all testing is done on gas flow rates not necessarily temperature, but could be off on that. The only reason we don't have this is the cost of testing. No sprinkler head company has seen a return on investment to do this testing. Tyco saw a return on the window sprinklers, don't know if it was actually realized. P.S. this adding heads to small issues is done often enough in the real world. My opinion to follow - Bottom line is if the sprinklers work there is no need for a rated wall in nearly all cases. If the sprinklers don't work 1 and 2 hr walls have high failure rates long before the actual rating. 3 and 4's do a bit better. Sometimes referred to maximum loss area wall. To a large extent without operating sprinklers rated walls are only as good as the fire department is in putting the fire out. Small dept or limited water 1 and 2 hr are useless. Big city FD 3's and 4's might be overkill. But the codes don't factor this in, yet. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 12:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: non-rated door One of the reasons that you don't find a listed application for water curtains on a fire door may be the difficulty in performing a test in accordance to NFPA 252 to get a rated door. I haven't talked to anyone at a lab facility, but I am thinking that they would be resistant to putting an array of sprinklers inside of their furnace while performing a burn test on a door assembly. Plus, I think that it would be tough to keep the furnace temperatures in line with the test curve with sprinklers inside of the furnace. It seems that I have heard rumors of water curtains for glass wall assemblies (maybe it is more wishful thinking by artistic architects), but I don't have any experience with those things. The only thing I have been able to find is water curtains for exposure and opening protection on exterior walls, not for anything inside of a building. If you have a daring AHJ and engineer you could write up a performance based criteria, but I wouldn't do it. Fire doors are supposed to be a passive barrier. If the sprinkler system has a problem, in spite of our best efforts (how many times have valves been shut, etc), then that door is going to BURN. Kevin Law, PE Bechtel National, Inc. Waste Treatment Project Fire Protection Engineering Work (509) 371-3280 Cell (509) 531-5715 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: non-rated door Matt, There is no code or provision for being able to add a fire rating to walls or partitions by adding sprinklers on both sides, but I do wish I had a dollar for every time I have had an architect ask me this. It seems like it would make sense, but there is no listing or precedence that I am aware of for doing this for walls - unlike what is in place for glazing with window sprinklers and such. Luckily, rated doors are not that expensive. Your contractor should just buy one. Good luck, Steve Kowkabany, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC 60 Ocean Boulevard, Suite 15 Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 904-652-4200 Phone 904-212-0868 Fax We have moved. Please note our new address. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: non-rated door I have a case where a contractor wants to put a decorative (not fire rated) door into a rated hallway of a non-sprinkled building. I was hoping that there was some code or study that allows for a water curtain to be placed on both sides of the door in order to maintain the fire rating. Has anyone heard of anything like this? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS & MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. 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