Dog years? On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:06 AM, Bill Brooks <[email protected]> wrote: > Kevin, > > Related to "real world", "without regard to cost", and "doctoral > dissertations", would you be willing to share some information about DOE > Fire Hazard Analysis documentation? I'd very much like to correspond > off-line on this topic. My DOE experience at this point is only 13 years > but I believe one DOE year is equivalent to at least 5 normal years. > > Bill Brooks > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > 372 Wilett Drive > Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 > 410-544-3620 > 410-544-3032 FAX > 412-400-6528 Cell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: non-rated door > > I would be very interested to see that report....as to "real world" I have > been working in the DOE environment for the past 15 years and they are very > much into compliance with the codes and standards without regard to cost. > So "in the real world" is not much of a consideration here without somebody > writing a doctoral dissertation on the alternative method. It can be > ......well, interesting, we will say. > > As far as survival of any rated barrier, the "nominal" hour rating is only > for the prescribed conditions of the test in a very controlled environment. > "In the real world" you have varying fire loads, different fire dynamics > than the E119 curve, construction variations in the wall/door/opening > protection assembly, penetrations in walls that are not sealed/maintained, > etc., etc., etc. > > > Hey, this is fun > > > Kevin Law, PE > Bechtel National, Inc. > Waste Treatment Project > Fire Protection Engineering > Work (509) 371-3280 > Cell (509) 531-5715 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:21 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: non-rated door > > They ran sprinklers in the furnace for Tyco Window sprinklers. Temps did > not reach specified values but they deemed it passable based on the gas flow > rate and complete combustion. Or so I recall reading the report over 10 > years ago now. For some reason I think all testing is done on gas flow > rates not necessarily temperature, but could be off on that. > > The only reason we don't have this is the cost of testing. No sprinkler > head company has seen a return on investment to do this testing. Tyco saw a > return on the window sprinklers, don't know if it was actually realized. > > P.S. this adding heads to small issues is done often enough in the real > world. My opinion to follow - Bottom line is if the sprinklers work there > is no need for a rated wall in nearly all cases. If the sprinklers don't > work 1 and 2 hr walls have high failure rates long before the actual rating. > 3 and 4's do a bit better. Sometimes referred to maximum loss area wall. > To a large extent without operating sprinklers rated walls are only as good > as the fire department is in putting the fire out. Small dept or limited > water 1 and 2 hr are useless. Big city FD 3's and 4's might be overkill. > But the codes don't factor this in, yet. > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > 763-658-4483 > 763-658-4921 fax > > Email: [email protected] > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > Waverly, MN 55390 > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > Waverly, MN 55390 > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 12:56 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: non-rated door > > One of the reasons that you don't find a listed application for water > curtains on a fire door may be the difficulty in performing a test in > accordance to NFPA 252 to get a rated door. I haven't talked to anyone at a > lab facility, but I am thinking that they would be resistant to putting an > array of sprinklers inside of their furnace while performing a burn test on > a door assembly. Plus, I think that it would be tough to keep the furnace > temperatures in line with the test curve with sprinklers inside of the > furnace. It seems that I have heard rumors of water curtains for glass wall > assemblies (maybe it is more wishful thinking by artistic architects), but I > don't have any experience with those things. The only thing I have been > able to find is water curtains for exposure and opening protection on > exterior walls, not for anything inside of a building. > > If you have a daring AHJ and engineer you could write up a performance based > criteria, but I wouldn't do it. Fire doors are supposed to be a passive > barrier. If the sprinkler system has a problem, in spite of our best > efforts (how many times have valves been shut, etc), then that door is going > to BURN. > > > Kevin Law, PE > Bechtel National, Inc. > Waste Treatment Project > Fire Protection Engineering > Work (509) 371-3280 > Cell (509) 531-5715 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Kowkabany > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:20 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: non-rated door > > Matt, > > There is no code or provision for being able to add a fire rating to walls > or partitions by adding sprinklers on both sides, but I do wish I had a > dollar for every time I have had an architect ask me this. It seems like it > would make sense, but there is no listing or precedence that I am aware of > for doing this for walls - unlike what is in place for glazing with window > sprinklers and such. > > Luckily, rated doors are not that expensive. Your contractor should just > buy one. > > Good luck, > > > Steve Kowkabany, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC > 60 Ocean Boulevard, Suite 15 > Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 > 904-652-4200 Phone > 904-212-0868 Fax > > We have moved. Please note our new address. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Grise > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:41 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: non-rated door > > I have a case where a contractor wants to put a decorative (not fire rated) > door into a rated hallway of a non-sprinkled building. I was hoping that > there was some code or study that allows for a water curtain to be placed on > both sides of the door in order to maintain the fire rating. Has anyone > heard of anything like this? > > Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP > Sales Engineer > Alliance Fire Protection > *Licensed in KS & MO > > 913.888.0647 ph > 913.888.0618 f > 913.927.0222 cell > www. AFPsprink.com > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release Date: 11/12/09 > 07:38:00 > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >
-- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
