Unsavory as a substitute for greed and crook is interesting. Let's not
forget ignorance or, more importantly, the ignorance of ignorance.
Everyone is correct in that the A/E is one of the worst offenders in this
case as they usually only supply specific technical specifications without
any really legal language as to who is responsible for all of the spec
sections and who coordinates them. Usually, some language may be inferred
as the General Contractor is responsible. While this is true, much
gnashing of teeth occurs before corrections are made.
Case in point is the hanging of large mains on bar joists that are not
capable of supporting the actual weight of the water filled pipe, much less
the added 250 #. This is where reinforcement bracing has to be added to
the bar joists to support the large pipe. This is more likely to happen in
a spec warehouse project, but could certainly occur in an old building that
was never meant to support the added live load that a large sprinkler
system presents. Overall, the entire sprinkler system could be viewed as a
uniform load, however large mains supported at 12 or 15 foot centers can
present quite a point load at their support points.
So, who is responsible for this situation? Who examines the sprinkler
contractor's shop drawings and determines the loads? Who determines that
the supports provided by the sprinkler contractor will be adequate for the
sprinkler pipe alone? What happens if the sprinkler system load is added
to the mechanical chilled water and hot water line load supported by the
same structural elements? It would seem that the A/E would have some
responsibility in this, but he is already out of the picture by the time
the sprinkler shop drawings are done.
Thank You
Rahe Loftin, P.E.
Region 7 - GSA
Office - 817-978-7299
Fax - 817-978-8644
Cell - 817-371-3102
Ron Greenman
<rongreen...@gmai To
l.com> [email protected]
Sent by: cc
sprinklerforum-bo
un...@firesprinkl Subject
er.org Re: Hangers
11/16/2009 10:10
AM
Please respond to
sprinklerfo...@fi
resprinkler.org
Unsavory. Nice. That's the kind of word I love to use in lieu of greed
and crook and the like. Unsavory.
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:53 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> Point being, read the contract and the specs very carefully. There is
much ignorance in the AE realm on what the sprinkler contractor is to
do. Sometimes it's not all ignorance but just some unsavory persons
looking for a stooge on which to hang the undesirable or forgotten work.
>
>
> Craig L. Prahl, CET
> Fire Protection Specialist
> Mechanical Department
> CH2MHILL
> Lockwood Greene
> 1500 International Drive
> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
> Direct - 864.599.4102
> Fax - 864.599.8439
> [email protected]
> http://www.ch2m.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:48 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Hangers
>
> Be careful though because out this way many of the lesser savvy AHJs are
interpreting this to mean that the sprinkler contractor is responsible for
proving the building will support the system and so the GCs are learning to
specify that in their contracts knowing they'll get backing. Some (both GCs
and AHJs) are even trying to require the sprinkler contractor to upgrade
the structure if necessary. I have even seen one contract that was trying
to pin the soils engineering on the sprinkler guy by requiring he verify
that the dirt work, foundations and structure were adequate. Just last week
a friend was contractually obligated for $16,000.00 worth of structural
upgrades even though not a part of the contract because the AHJ wouldn't
release the sprinkler permit until structural calcs were submitted with the
plans.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I believe the general consensus the last time this was asked was that
the requirement you quoted pertained to the hanger not the structure as
specifying building requirements would be beyond the scope of NFPA 13.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig L. Prahl, CET
>> Fire Protection Specialist
>> Mechanical Department
>> CH2MHILL
>> Lockwood Greene
>> 1500 International Drive
>> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax -
>> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg
>> Lindholm
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:09 AM
>> To: SprinklerFORUM
>> Subject: Hangers
>>
>> It's Monday and the brain doesn't seem to be working right.
>>
>> Section 9.1.1.2 (2002) says that the the hangers shall be designed to
support the water filled pipe plus 250#. Does the structure itself need to
support that much, or just the hanger assembly itself.
>>
>> Gregory Lindholm
>> Metro Fire Protection, Inc.
>> 8693 SE 34th Ave.
>> Owatonna, MN 55060
>> 507-451-9694
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
>>
>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
>>
>> To Unsubscribe, send an email
>> to:[email protected]
>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
>>
>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
>>
>> To Unsubscribe, send an email
>> to:[email protected]
>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ron Greenman
> Instructor
> Fire Protection Engineering
> Bates Technical College
> Tacoma, WA
>
> Member:
> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
_______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
>
> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
>
> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
> _______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
>
> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
>
> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
>
--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA
Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
