Try designing bracing for 4" or larger mains in a mini-storage made from light-gauge recycled steel. Trapeze hangers for everything down to 2" in some cases (6" and 8" zee's don't hold all that much, now do they). My favorite part of the dance is the looks of dismay on the Owner and SEOR's faces when you inform them of the loads ...
Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Hangers I'll always wonder how someone actually installed a 6" main in a Wal-Mart (retrofit into another dept store's vacant mall space) connected to the bottom chord of joists that was just that wavy Z-purlin material. Didn't the installers have a clue? Didn't the AHJ see it on the walk-thru? Owner's rep? When I saw what it was, I side-stepped out from underneath it and stayed away from crossing under it. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 5:26 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Hangers Maybe in the perfect world but in reality it won't happen that way. I've seen too many value engineered projects where one of the first things to go is the bldg. structure. Usually from an engineered bldg to a pre-engineered spaghetti noodle design that will barely hold itself up and sure isn't taking into consideration all the utility loading. And forget about EQ bracing, that would cause someone to have a stroke. Fortunately none of these super-econo model designs required bracing. In today's economy everything is up for grabs, nothing is exempt. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 5:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hangers I would still consider that unsavory, because its based on greed. Structural steel is one thing that should never be be value engineered. Using barjoists that will fold like a house of cards when someone hangs a plant from them isn't very smart in my opinion, and it cheapens the long term sustainability of construction. You don't often see issues with support when working on older buildings because they actually built them to last. I feel very sorry for anyone that has to retrofit a Target store in the next 30-40 years. The simple solution is to stop trying to save a couple bucks by skimping on structural steel, or get a fire protection engineer involved much earlier in the process of the building design. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:54 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Unsavory as a substitute for greed and crook is interesting. Let's > not forget ignorance or, more importantly, the ignorance of ignorance. > Everyone is correct in that the A/E is one of the worst offenders in > this case as they usually only supply specific technical > specifications without any really legal language as to who is > responsible for all of the spec sections and who coordinates them. > Usually, some language may be inferred as the General Contractor is > responsible. While this is true, much gnashing of teeth occurs before corrections are made. > > Case in point is the hanging of large mains on bar joists that are not > capable of supporting the actual weight of the water filled pipe, much > less the added 250 #. This is where reinforcement bracing has to be > added to the bar joists to support the large pipe. This is more > likely to happen in a spec warehouse project, but could certainly > occur in an old building that was never meant to support the added > live load that a large sprinkler system presents. Overall, the entire > sprinkler system could be viewed as a uniform load, however large > mains supported at 12 or 15 foot centers can present quite a point load at their support points. > > So, who is responsible for this situation? Who examines the sprinkler > contractor's shop drawings and determines the loads? Who determines > that the supports provided by the sprinkler contractor will be adequate for the > sprinkler pipe alone? What happens if the sprinkler system load is added > to the mechanical chilled water and hot water line load supported by > the same structural elements? It would seem that the A/E would have > some responsibility in this, but he is already out of the picture by > the time the sprinkler shop drawings are done. > > Thank You > > Rahe Loftin, P.E. > Region 7 - GSA > Office - 817-978-7299 > Fax - 817-978-8644 > Cell - 817-371-3102 > > > > > > Ron Greenman > <rongreen...@gmai To > l.com> [email protected] > Sent by: cc > sprinklerforum-bo > un...@firesprinkl Subject > er.org Re: Hangers > > > 11/16/2009 10:10 > AM > > > Please respond to > sprinklerfo...@fi > resprinkler.org > > > > > > > Unsavory. Nice. That's the kind of word I love to use in lieu of greed > and crook and the like. Unsavory. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:53 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Point being, read the contract and the specs very carefully. There > > is > much ignorance in the AE realm on what the sprinkler contractor is to > do. Sometimes it's not all ignorance but just some unsavory persons > looking for a stooge on which to hang the undesirable or forgotten work. > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection Specialist > > Mechanical Department > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - > > 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman > > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:48 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Hangers > > > > Be careful though because out this way many of the lesser savvy AHJs > > are > interpreting this to mean that the sprinkler contractor is responsible > for proving the building will support the system and so the GCs are > learning to specify that in their contracts knowing they'll get > backing. Some (both GCs and AHJs) are even trying to require the > sprinkler contractor to upgrade the structure if necessary. I have > even seen one contract that was trying to pin the soils engineering on > the sprinkler guy by requiring he verify that the dirt work, > foundations and structure were adequate. Just last week a friend was > contractually obligated for $16,000.00 worth of structural upgrades > even though not a part of the contract because the AHJ wouldn't > release the sprinkler permit until structural calcs were submitted with the plans. > > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I believe the general consensus the last time this was asked was > >> that > the requirement you quoted pertained to the hanger not the structure > as specifying building requirements would be beyond the scope of NFPA 13. > >> > >> > >> > >> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >> Fire Protection Specialist > >> Mechanical Department > >> CH2MHILL > >> Lockwood Greene > >> 1500 International Drive > >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - > >> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > >> Lindholm > >> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:09 AM > >> To: SprinklerFORUM > >> Subject: Hangers > >> > >> It's Monday and the brain doesn't seem to be working right. > >> > >> Section 9.1.1.2 (2002) says that the the hangers shall be designed > >> to > support the water filled pipe plus 250#. Does the structure itself > need to support that much, or just the hanger assembly itself. > >> > >> Gregory Lindholm > >> Metro Fire Protection, Inc. > >> 8693 SE 34th Ave. > >> Owatonna, MN 55060 > >> 507-451-9694 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > >> [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >> to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-req > >> [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > >> field) _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > >> [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >> to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-req > >> [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > >> field) > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering > > Bates Technical College > > Tacoma, WA > > > > Member: > > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > [email protected]> > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > [email protected]> > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
