It is the detection that puts the PRE in the ACTION--- without full detection, it could be NO ACTION
-----Original Message----- From: Brad [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system In a model the smoke can be made to behave- maybe not in real life- even with-out water spray affecting the smoke- what about the HVAC, open doors and windows, etc? -----Original Message----- From: Richardson, R [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system The only other possible concern is a fire scenario near the pre-action/wet pipe transition that opens a wet pipe head, the water affects the smoke enough so that the smokes have delayed operation while the fire spreads into the pre-action area. Realistic scenario? not sure, how are those models doing these days to simulate the affects of sprinkler discharge on smoke travel? Rich Richardson Seattle Fire Department -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pielow, Robert Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 07:15 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system There would not be an issue if a sprinkler head from the wet system were to be installed in the pre action area. It would sense heat, open, and discharge water. The zoning and annunciation might be screwed up, but the head would still operate. The big issue is if a pre action head were to be installed in the wet area without extending the detection. This could also include a new office or closet. The pre action system head could open from a fire but no water would discharge because the detection leg of the pre action system has not yet activated. Robert J. Pielow, P.E. Fire Protection & Life Safety -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:37 AM To: '[email protected]' Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system I saw an example of a DI PA system covering only a part of the floor of a production facility. They had one piece of equipment that was very water sensitive and (I was told) mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing that the insurance company would allow was a DI PA system over that piece of equipment. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS & MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richardson, R Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:28 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system Actually, "want" is not really the situation. It is a large high rise containing a museum on lower floors. The museum requires all sprinklers on any floors directly above to be double interlock pre-action systems, apparently as a condition to get certain exhibits in place. However, the museum does not cover the entire first floor (complicated building(s), multiple fire control rooms, etc). Until a recent change there was a wall on most (all?) floors above in line with the separation between the museum and other spaces. On at least one floor the wall is being removed, and only the sprinklers directly above are apparently being required to be pre-action, logical?? In any case we are leaning towards two additional rows of detection into the non-pre-action area, or the wet pipe flow switch idea, or of course full detection, but it is a somewhat large space so $$ is part of the conversation. As for why a double interlock freezer type system, massive paranoia surrounds me. Nearly every computer room in this town has been sold a double interlock system - we have an entire high rise full of server rooms the whole darn thing protected by double interlock. Nothing prohibits it as far as I know, would not be my choice personally, but those pre-action system in that high rise sure beat the un-sprinklered condition that particular building used to be in. We do try to restrict the use of both cross zoning and double interlock together, and alarm verification etc. Thanks, Rich Richardson Seattle Fire Department -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system Why does someone want to cover part of a large open area with a system specifically designed to cover freezer warehouses? On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Scott A. Futrell <[email protected]> wrote: > SI or DI? > > IMHO never a good idea to have two different systems of any type in the > same room. Maintenance? Which do you turn off in emergency? > Remodeling? > > Smoke on non-pa side operates PA and somebody has to drain all the > drops... > > Scott Futrell > > (763) 425-1001 Office > (612) 759-5556 Cell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Richardson, R > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:18 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system > > Good idea Chris, thanks. Invaluable forum as previously stated. Can > AHJ's join this association as a means of support for this resource. > > Rich Richardson > Seattle Fire Department > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris > Cahill > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:00 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system > > I think Brad is on the right track. With the detection should pick up > things in the non-PA space near the boundary so it's just a dry system > as it > spreads to the PA side of things. The whole non-PA side maybe not. > > Thinking out loud couldn't the non-PA flow switch be tied into the PA > system > along with the detection to trip the electrical side of the PA valve? > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > 763-658-4483 > 763-658-4921 fax > > Email: [email protected] > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > Waverly, MN 55390 > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > Waverly, MN 55390 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Richardson, R > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 12:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Pre-action in same space as wet pipe system > > Seeking opinions about a proposal where a pre-action system covers part > of a > large space, the other parts being covered with a wet pipe system. > There is > no separation between the two system types. > > Thanks in advance, > > Rich Richardson > Seattle Fire Department > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
