YO! Ron's right! The 9 feet from a single wall allowance is a moot point with residential sprinklers, because they have specific listing criteria for being off of a wall and goals for water spray close to the ceiling level. (Heck, in some cases, you can go 10' from a wall.) However, for calculating the double flow requirements of the NFPA 13 residential method (.10gpm/sqft), the "design area" portion of the small room rule DOES apply to residential sprinklers when they are installed in "small rooms". (You can thank the AFSA and the NFSA for that language in the standard....) My wife says I gotta go clean something now..... enjoy the rest of your weekend!
Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL www.sprinkleracademy.com > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:45:23 -0700 > Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Carol, > > The 8.4.5.1 stuff is correct but that just tells you what types of > sprinklers The design/hydraulics stuff for residential is in 11.2.3.5, > and though I didn't compare 2002 to 2007 to see if they read exactly > the same the do read essentially the same. The Room Design Method (not > small room rule that has to do with distance from a single wall in > rooms less than 800 sqft) is 11.2.2.3 in the 2002 edition, but I I > don't think it applies in residential. I may be wrong but I'd base > that interpretation on the consideration that all rooms in residential > are small enough to fall under Room Design Method criteria and so > there wouldn't be two sections if one covered both. They two do define > different criteria which equates to different performance > characteristics for two different kinds of fire hazards (room design > appropriate for small offices with office type furnishings arranged > for the most part in the interior of the room, no drapes or curtains > of a highly combustible nature, no candles, no sleeping (haha), no > smoking, no drinking, etc. versus residential with household (lots of > foam) furnishings arranged around the edges of the room, all the home > vices, sleeping, lots of gewgaws, etc. Different fire scenarios > different protection. And as I'm about to post I see Cecil has beaten > me to the punch. Let's compare responses. > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Carrol Glimstad > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Guys, > > > > So sorry to have left you hanging last night! I got word from my AHJ last > > evening, that "he (the department) have adopted 2002 and so to please > > submit new > > calcs based on 8.4.5.1 and 8.4.5.1 of the 2002 edition." AAAAUGGGGGHHHH!!! > > I then proceeded to my favorite watering hole for some "inspiration"of my > > own... > > > > In response to your earlier question, Cecil, you are correct, the "small > > room > > rule" was exactly what I was looking for. I only have a 2002 with me here > > at > > home and I should have checked the 2007, where I would have found the > > provision > > in 8.6.2.1.2. (ok, maybe I would have found it... : ) > > > > But now, new question.... It has always been my understanding that you can > > cite > > from newer editions but never backward. Can I use 1.5 or 1.6 from 2002 to > > help > > persuade the AHJ to accept 11.3.1.2 from 2007, the newer edition? Any other > > ideas on how I convince him? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 9:21:07 PM > > Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? > > > > Cecil, > > > > Excellent! Straight to the heart of the matter. What are we talking > > about? Room Design Method, Special Residential Design Approach, Small > > Room Rule (the one I was talking about being confusing to this > > discussion was the nine feet off of one wall with standard spray heads > > when the room is 600 sqft or less), my misuse by saying A/D method > > yesterday, etc. Thanks. And never fear, a box of electrons is on it's > > way at the speed of light to you as we speak. Watch carefully. > > Although they have mass they have no size and are hard to see when > > they arrive. > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> And Carrol, to further thank my friends for watching my back, I'd like to > >> make > >>sure that you were NOT asking about the "room design method" (11.2.3.3) but > >>that > >>you ARE asking about the "Special Design Approach" known as "Residential > >>Sprinklers" in NFPA 13 (11.3.1). > >> > >> You did ask specifically about the room design method in the subject of > >> your > >>question! However, I am only referring to the residential method (because > >>you > >>are using residential sprinklers). > >> > >> Please, I beg you.... I do not have many electrons left! (As my good > >> friend > >>Ron Greenman so kindly points out....) I must know, was my post > >>appropriate for > >>your situation or have you really been asking about the "room design method" > >>(also known as the largest room rule) all along??? > >> > >> Still, even if you were talking about the "Room Design Method" (wherein you > >>should be using QR sprinklers in the largest room of your building and not > >>residential sprinklers)...... you could use the "small room rule" square > >>footage > >>allowance (room area divided by the number of sprinklers) to determine the > >>"design area" for the purposes of calculating minimum flow required from a > >>sprinkler. > >> > >> Help.... need electrons..... > >> > >> Anxiously, > >> > >> Cecil Bilbo > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:59:50 -0700 > >>> Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> > >>> And because I'm so in to "proper" language (see my rant yesterday > >>> about design area) and because cecil and I watch each other's back I'm > >>> going to mention that everyone keeps saying "small room" when they're > >>> talking about "room design method." Small room refers to the s"small > >>> room rule" which is a completely different thing. I've noticed after > >>> playing on this Forum for years that we all, at one time or another, > >>> spend lots of electrons answering questions that weren't asked because > >>> the question was confusing. > >>> > >>> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo > >>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Carrol, > >>> > > >>> > Hopefully, you caught Ron's reference to 11.3.1.2 and not solely the > >>>requirement for a 20x20 spacing. Specifically, take a look at Ron's > >>>inferred > >>>reference to 11.3.1.2 item number 2: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > 11.3.1.2* Unless the requirements of 11.3.1.3 are met, the minimum > >>> > required > >>>discharge from each of the four hydraulically most demanding sprinklers > >>>shall be > >>>the greater of the following: > >>> > (1) In accordance with minimum flow rates indicated in individual > >>> > listings > >>> > (2) Calculated based on delivering a minimum of 0.1 gpm/ft2 (4.1 > >>> > mm/min) > >>>over the design area in accordance with the provisions of 8.5.2.1 or > >>>8.6.2.1.2 > >>> > > >>> > Item Number One requires us to examine the listing. The sprinkler > >>> > listing > >>>for a residential sprinkler likely delivers .05 gpm/sq ft (or just a bit > >>>more) > >>>and do not try to "back in" to this density because it is based on a > >>>listed area > >>>of 20 x 20 in your case because you are 10 feet off the wall. This means > >>>the > >>>listing requires 20 gpm or a little more. > >>> > > >>> > Item Number Two says to use regular spacing requirements and deliver .10 > >>>gpm/sqft. The question is whether or not the "design area" is the SxL > >>>rule(8.5.2.1) or the "Small Room Rule" (8.6.2.1.2). > >>> > > >>> > IF (and I mean IF) your room meets the definition of a "small room", > >>> > then you > >>>may divide the room by the number of sprinklers and deliver .10 gpm/sqft > >>>over > >>>THAT "design area". This would meet the requirements of 11.3.1.2, item > >>>number > >>>two. In the example you have given to us, you would be able to flow .10 > >>>gpm > >>>over the 256 sq ft of "design area" if your room meets the definition of a > >>>small > >>>room. The flow from the sprinkler would need to be a minimum of 25.6 gpm > >>>under > >>>this method. > >>> > > >>> > The last step is to compare the flows required by Item One and Item Two. > >>> This is called for in the charging sentence of 11.3.1.2 ("shall be the > >>> greater > >>>of the following"). That would mean that your sprinkler must flow the > >>>greater > >>>of the listed flow of 20 gpm or the "design area" flow of 25.6 gpm. > >>>Therefore, > >>>your sprinkler must flow 25.6 gpm! > >>> > > >>> > Now go rock on! And have your AHJ call Ron Greenman if he has any > >>> > further > >>>questions. > >>> > > >>> > Sincerely, > >>> > > >>> > A SprinklerGeek named Cecil > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:49:29 -0700 > >>> >> From: [email protected] > >>> >> Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? > >>> >> To: [email protected] > >>> >> > >>> >> That was exactly what I was hoping to hear. Now, hopefully, I can > >>> >> convince > >>>the > >>> >> AHJ of this. I have INCREDIBLE pressure and flow and it seems crazy > >>> >> that > >>I > >>> >> can't get 4 heads to flow. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks everyone! > >>> >> > >>> >> Carrol > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> ________________________________ > >>> >> From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > >>> >> To: [email protected] > >>> >> Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 9:25:04 AM > >>> >> Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? > >>> >> > >>> >> 2007/11.3.1 > >>> >> > >>> >> see > >>> >> 11.3.1.1 > >>> >> and > >>> >> 11/.3.1.2 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> > [email protected] > >>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > > >>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > > >>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> > to:[email protected] > >>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ron Greenman > >>> Instructor > >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology > >>> Bates Technical College > >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>> > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>> > >>> 253.680.7346 > >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>> > >>> Member: > >>> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > >>> > >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
