That was exactly what I was hoping to hear. Now, hopefully, I can convince the AHJ of this. I have INCREDIBLE pressure and flow and it seems crazy that I can't get 4 heads to flow.
Thanks everyone! Carrol ________________________________ From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 9:25:04 AM Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? 2007/11.3.1 see 11.3.1.1 and 11/.3.1.2 On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 9:04 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Carrol, > I was always taught in sprinkler systems hydraulics,you MUST use the actual > head spacing (in your case 20'x20') to determine the maximum end head > pressure.I have heard of others who have used the averaging method but > haven't found anyone to give me the actual code section to back this up. > If this is a situation where only one area is driving the 20x20 condition,it > may be more feasable to just add a few heads to attain a lower end head > condition that will work for the entire system.A few heads could save a lot > of larger pipng,etc. > > Lamar Vaughn,SET > > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Carrol Glimstad wrote: > >> Ok, >> I get that it's either the listed flow (20x20) or the .10 over the spacing >> area... But what I want to know is what do I use for the "spacing area"? Do >> I use the 20 x20 because my heads are 10 feet off of walls (s x l) or can I >> use the square footage of the room (16 x16) at 256 sq. ft.? And yup, this >> is the head that drives the calc, the other three heads queue up to this >> one at even smaller head spacings. >> >> Thanks! >> Carrol >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo <[email protected]> >> To: FORUM <[email protected]> >> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 6:46:06 PM >> Subject: RE: Residential "Room Design Method"? >> >> >> Ok.... to back-up Ron.... >> >> While the "Most Remote Area" is fine once you understand what it is that >> we intend..... >> >> The "Most Demanding Area" is the most accurate description, but.... >> >> NFPA 13 refers to the "hydraulically most demanding area", the "design >> area", the "remote area", "most remote sprinkler" >> >> It's worth pointing out what we mean, but once we understand..... let's >> drop the semantics. >> >> As for residential demand and calculatons: >> >> Sprinklers should flow: >> a. .10gpm/sq ft over the spacing area (small room rule can help here) OR, >> b. The listed flow for the residential sprinkler (if it is more >> demanding.....as opposed to remote) OR, >> c. Whatever the manufacturer says. >> >> d. Whichever is greater. >> >> Did I mention that you should listen to Ron? (choose D.) >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Some guy named Cecil >> (not known for being politically correct... just ask the Patriots' >> Cheerleaders) >> >>> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 17:27:20 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> >>> Design area(s) guys. Remote implies furthest from riser and we all >>> know that that is not always correct. Unfortunately the kids don't >>> know that and they get the wrong idea into their impressionable little >>> heads when we say remote. Trust me. I have to fight this all the time. >>> No matter how often I try to tell them the right stuff and then they >>> hear remote somewhere and all my good work is for naught. Cecil can >>> probably get my back on this. >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:17 PM, A.P.Silva <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Would "hydraulically most remote" be more politically correct? >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >>>> Greenman >>>> Sent: October 29, 2010 6:02 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: Residential "Room Design Method"? >>>> >>>> Jamie, >>>> >>>> Might I suggest changing your habit of saying "remote" area with the >>>> more >>>> proper and less confusing term "design" area. Remote more properly >>>> refers to >>>> the furthest distance from a DPV for the inspector's test connection. >>>> Back >>>> in the olden days, when most sprinklers went into manufacturing and >>>> warehousing facilities, big, open buildings with tree systems and >>>> typically >>>> uniform branch lines, the "remote" area and the "design" area typically >>>> were >>>> the same, but that doesn't always hold true these days. Additionally, >>>> until >>>> you're sure there is only one then "design area(s)" is even more >>>> apropos. >>>> Don't get me wrong. I do the same thing on occasion. Old habits are >>>> hard to >>>> break, but I try to be cognitive of the fact that every time I use >>>> "remote" >>>> I'm inferring something I really don't mean. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Jamie.seidl <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You need to calculate the most hydraulically remote 4 heads. This is >>>> >>>> typically a loaded branch line that supplies a bedroom on the end of the >>>> line. For instance (20x20 * (400 sqft) @ .10 gpm = 40 gpm). This end >>>> head >>>> pressure will act on the rest of the heads on the BL, closets, bathroom, >>>> hallway so your total demand on a BL can be upwards of 160 gpm, >>>> depending on >>>> configuration of the unit. Keep in mind, you can mix K factors in >>>> residential occupancies to balance the hydraulics and minimize over >>>> discharge. >>>>> >>>>> Jamie >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 29, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Carrol Glimstad >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm designing a residential project using res. heads (LFII) and >>>>>> designing to full NFPA 13. When I calc my four heads using the >>>>>> "design area", I am wondering if I can use the room design method to >>>>>> determine my sprinkler demand? For instance, I have a room that >>>>>> measures 16' X 16', (256 sq. ft.) but the head is actually located 10 >>>>>> feet off of the 2 adjacent far walls. If using the flow rates from >>>>>> the chart I know that I need to flow 20 gpm from that head based on my >>>> >>>> maximum 20' x 20' spacing. But If I'm using the .10 over the "design >>>> area" >>>>>> >>>>>> can I just use the demand of 25.6 gpm for that head (16' x 16' sq. >>>>>> ft.) versus the 40 gpm based on 20' x 20'? I understand then I would >>>>>> then base my system requirements on the more demanding of the two >>>>>> methods. I can flow all four heads at a 20 gpm no problem, but the 40 >>>> >>>> gpm from just one head.....ouch! >>>>>> >>>>>> I haven't done residential in a looooong time, so thought I'd check >>>>>> for the heck of it and I'm pretty sure I'll find instead that I'm full >>>>>> of >>>> >>>> it! >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks in advance! >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrol Glimstad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>>> >>>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>>>> to:[email protected] >>>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>>> to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Greenman >>>> Instructor >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>> Bates Technical College >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>> >>>> 253.680.7346 >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>> >>>> Member: >>>> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>>> >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>>> Bacon, >>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>> Bates Technical College >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>> >>> 253.680.7346 >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>> >>> Member: >>> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>> >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
