These lists are thoughtful, and yours is certainly comprehensive. But all of this discussion begs the question: From a contractor's perspective, who can budget for this level of service? When the GC holds the project until the last minute, and you've got 20 days (or less) to put together a complete and correct set of documents, and given that most A/E teams are borderline clueless and unresponsive, this sort of vacuum environment just doesn't exist. As a consulting firm, we have the benefit of much longer lead time to cajole, hound, beg and plead for the information necessary to undertake a thoughtful and progressive decision tree such as those described. But if you're on the short end of a deferred submittal timeline ...
Steve Leyton -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:13 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: top five list Ok, now the forum's blood is flowing. Number 3* made me laugh and brings back memories, but this is what I am trying to address and emphasize. The consequence of drawings that are not well thought out get trashed (and so does the engineer/designer/firm/etc). I guess another way of stating the question is Why are the drawings being thrown in the trash (from a technical standpoint)? Some of my thoughts to go along with what has already been stated: 1. Know industry standards. As identified below. 2. Analyze the entire situation. Don't just answer the first question asked and move on. Find out as much as possible about user operations, goals and objectives, insurance requirements, citations, etc. All of these can drastically change the level of requirements necessary for a successful sprinkler system installation. 3. Engineer conservatively and keep the system dynamic. Be sure to include enough safety factors for last minute changes and/or sprinkler contractor creativity. Engineering just below the water supply demand will likely lead to change orders and delays in construction. But, don't waste money. 4. Keep the owner's interests in mind. Contractors interests don't always parallel owner's interests (sorry). The owner may not know his interests from a fire protection standpoint. Incorporating information from #3 and #4 (within reason) will permit for easier expansion based on future changes of use, change of storage arrangements/products/packaging, new technology, etc. 5. Identify limiting factors. Structural elements (height, type, layout, capacity), water supply (psi & gpm), obstructions, storage arrangements, products, etc all play an important role in selecting the design options located within NFPA 13 and the building codes. 6. Know the local amendments. 7. Identify zoning requirements. Coordinating with fire alarm zone and evacuation methodology up front is required. 8. Keep maintenance requirements in mind. What else? The list will likely be a top 15 or 20 when we are done. Duane Johnson, PE Program Manager Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research Services National Institutes of Health 301-496-0487 "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" -----Original Message----- From: Cliff Whitfield [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 9:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: top five list Along with what Greg says, if we could ever get this actually done correctly it would make everyone's life much easier when it comes to bidding a job. How many times have you rolled out a set of plans that were done by a PE or FPE only to find a combustible attic with no indication anywhere in the specs or drawings that you need to put sprinklers up there? If you put them in your bid, you miss the job. If you leave them out like most folks do, you have to eat them because, unlike your competitors, you are supposed to know that it was wrong and do it anyway! Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. [email protected] www.fire-design.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 8:23 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: top five list 1) If they don't KNOW what they are talking about, don't put it on the drawing - so CONFIRM their information (don't lay out sprinklers and put branchlines on the drawings as a guess) 2) CONFIRM the Occupancy type and pertinent codes - CRITICAL 3) SPECIFY with thought the design criteria - don't say .10/1,500 if you will allow reductions and large room rule calcs etc. 4) UNDERSTAND the project 5) WATER SUPPLY ANALYSIS - don't put fire pumps on drawings just to cover yourself. The details are easy for contractors to work through. The hard part is working behind BAD general info, incorrect code references, bad water supply data, heads laid out that are not even close and a contract that says you will comply with the (incorrect) drawings, etc. Greg On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Chris Cahill <[email protected]>wrote: > I'd combine Craig's 4 and 5 and add a new 5 water supply analysis. > Otherwise that is what the A/E should focus on. > > Chris > -----Original Message----- > From: <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:37:18 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: top five list > > Duane, > > When you say consulting are you talking about A/E firms? > > In real basic, simple terms (definitely not all inclusive): > > A/E Fire Protection Specialist: > 1. Obtain description of the use of the occupancy. > 2. Identify applicable codes. > 3. Identify Insurance Underwriter, Risk Consultant, AHJ and any specific > additional requirements. > 4. Perform fire hazards analysis. > 5. Determine fire protection systems design criteria based on hazards > analysis, applicable codes and any additional requirements. > > > Contractor: (not design/build) > 1. Obtain A/E drawings or occupancy descriptions > 2. Verify water data, code data, system design criteria > 3. Throw A/E drawings in the trash* > 4. See list of items under heading of A/E above. > 5. Prepare installation drawings. > > > *This is not applicable for all A/E submitted drawings and should not be > taken as an indictment against any A/E firm its engineers, designers or > other related staff, their families or pets, living or dead or in a > semi-comatose state stuck at their desk. Your results may vary. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Johnson, Duane > (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:07 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: top five list > > I will be a guest lecturer at the Univ of Md next week. I will be > providing a list of must do's while preparing sprinkler drawings. Knowing > that many students will be going to work for consulting firms and others to > installation firms, I want to provide input from both perspectives. So I > ask the forum the following questions... here is your chance to provide > input to future industry personnel: > > > If you were asked to provide a top 5 list that an engineer should > do/identify on a sprinkler design, what would they be? > > > What are the first 5 items a sprinkler designer should do when preparing > drawings? > > > Feel free to email me direct. > Thanks. > > Duane Johnson, PE > Program Manager > Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) > Office of Research Services > National Institutes of Health > 301-496-0487 > > "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
