If the engineer doesnt clearly and correct do his job up front....you gamble and guess. That means you shoot high and hope everyone else bidding sees the bad design and corrects it in pricing, or you gamble and shoot low hoping you can get paid to correct it later.
LOSE LOSE in this economy. Greg On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] < [email protected]> wrote: > OK, so since you only have 20 days or less, what are the top 5 things you > do to make sure the job gets done in 19 days? > > Duane Johnson, PE > Program Manager > Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) > Office of Research Services > National Institutes of Health > 301-496-0487 > > "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Leyton [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 10:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: top five list > > These lists are thoughtful, and yours is certainly comprehensive. But > all of this discussion begs the question: From a contractor's > perspective, who can budget for this level of service? When the GC > holds the project until the last minute, and you've got 20 days (or > less) to put together a complete and correct set of documents, and given > that most A/E teams are borderline clueless and unresponsive, this sort > of vacuum environment just doesn't exist. As a consulting firm, we > have the benefit of much longer lead time to cajole, hound, beg and > plead for the information necessary to undertake a thoughtful and > progressive decision tree such as those described. But if you're on > the short end of a deferred submittal timeline ... > > Steve Leyton > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Johnson, > Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:13 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: top five list > > Ok, now the forum's blood is flowing. Number 3* made me laugh and brings > back memories, but this is what I am trying to address and emphasize. > The consequence of drawings that are not well thought out get trashed > (and so does the engineer/designer/firm/etc). I guess another way of > stating the question is Why are the drawings being thrown in the trash > (from a technical standpoint)? > > Some of my thoughts to go along with what has already been stated: > > 1. Know industry standards. As identified below. > 2. Analyze the entire situation. Don't just answer the first question > asked and move on. Find out as much as possible about user operations, > goals and objectives, insurance requirements, citations, etc. All of > these can drastically change the level of requirements necessary for a > successful sprinkler system installation. > 3. Engineer conservatively and keep the system dynamic. Be sure to > include enough safety factors for last minute changes and/or sprinkler > contractor creativity. Engineering just below the water supply demand > will likely lead to change orders and delays in construction. But, > don't waste money. > 4. Keep the owner's interests in mind. Contractors interests don't > always parallel owner's interests (sorry). The owner may not know his > interests from a fire protection standpoint. Incorporating information > from #3 and #4 (within reason) will permit for easier expansion based on > future changes of use, change of storage > arrangements/products/packaging, new technology, etc. > 5. Identify limiting factors. Structural elements (height, type, > layout, capacity), water supply (psi & gpm), obstructions, storage > arrangements, products, etc all play an important role in selecting the > design options located within NFPA 13 and the building codes. > 6. Know the local amendments. > 7. Identify zoning requirements. Coordinating with fire alarm zone and > evacuation methodology up front is required. > 8. Keep maintenance requirements in mind. > > > What else? The list will likely be a top 15 or 20 when we are done. > > > Duane Johnson, PE > Program Manager > Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) > Office of Research Services > National Institutes of Health > 301-496-0487 > > "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cliff Whitfield [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 9:41 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: top five list > > Along with what Greg says, if we could ever get this actually done > correctly > it would make everyone's life much easier when it comes to bidding a > job. > How many times have you rolled out a set of plans that were done by a PE > or > FPE only to find a combustible attic with no indication anywhere in the > specs or drawings that you need to put sprinklers up there? If you put > them > in your bid, you miss the job. If you leave them out like most folks > do, > you have to eat them because, unlike your competitors, you are supposed > to > know that it was wrong and do it anyway! > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > President > Fire Design, Inc. > > [email protected] > www.fire-design.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 8:23 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: top five list > > 1) If they don't KNOW what they are talking about, don't put it on the > drawing - so CONFIRM their information (don't lay out sprinklers and put > branchlines on the drawings as a guess) > 2) CONFIRM the Occupancy type and pertinent codes - CRITICAL > 3) SPECIFY with thought the design criteria - don't say .10/1,500 if > you > will allow reductions and large room rule calcs etc. > 4) UNDERSTAND the project > 5) WATER SUPPLY ANALYSIS - don't put fire pumps on drawings just to > cover > yourself. > > The details are easy for contractors to work through. The hard part is > working behind BAD general info, incorrect code references, bad water > supply > data, heads laid out that are not even close and a contract that says > you > will comply with the (incorrect) drawings, etc. > > Greg > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Chris Cahill > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > I'd combine Craig's 4 and 5 and add a new 5 water supply analysis. > > Otherwise that is what the A/E should focus on. > > > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > > From: <[email protected]> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:37:18 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: top five list > > > > Duane, > > > > When you say consulting are you talking about A/E firms? > > > > In real basic, simple terms (definitely not all inclusive): > > > > A/E Fire Protection Specialist: > > 1. Obtain description of the use of the occupancy. > > 2. Identify applicable codes. > > 3. Identify Insurance Underwriter, Risk Consultant, AHJ and any > specific > > additional requirements. > > 4. Perform fire hazards analysis. > > 5. Determine fire protection systems design criteria based on hazards > > analysis, applicable codes and any additional requirements. > > > > > > Contractor: (not design/build) > > 1. Obtain A/E drawings or occupancy descriptions > > 2. Verify water data, code data, system design criteria > > 3. Throw A/E drawings in the trash* > > 4. See list of items under heading of A/E above. > > 5. Prepare installation drawings. > > > > > > *This is not applicable for all A/E submitted drawings and should not > be > > taken as an indictment against any A/E firm its engineers, designers > or > > other related staff, their families or pets, living or dead or in a > > semi-comatose state stuck at their desk. Your results may vary. > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Johnson, Duane > > (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:07 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: top five list > > > > I will be a guest lecturer at the Univ of Md next week. I will be > > providing a list of must do's while preparing sprinkler drawings. > Knowing > > that many students will be going to work for consulting firms and > others > to > > installation firms, I want to provide input from both perspectives. > So I > > ask the forum the following questions... here is your chance to > provide > > input to future industry personnel: > > > > > > If you were asked to provide a top 5 list that an engineer should > > do/identify on a sprinkler design, what would they be? > > > > > > What are the first 5 items a sprinkler designer should do when > preparing > > drawings? > > > > > > Feel free to email me direct. > > Thanks. > > > > Duane Johnson, PE > > Program Manager > > Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) > > Office of Research Services > > National Institutes of Health > > 301-496-0487 > > > > "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Greg McGahan > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > fax 850-937-1852 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
