I got it Ed! Calc the most demanding 912 SF, but ADD the demand for the head in the 'atrium' on your way to the BOR- (the precedent is an 'un-attached' water curtain- and the heat that activated the 912 SF is likely irritating that head now anyway). The great beauty of this scheme is that you prove the most demanding Pe-wise while you are at it ;)
-----Original Message----- From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 5:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: QR design area reduction You use the sprinklers to lower the level of the diesel exhaust down to breathing level? Sprinkler water and diesel fumes. I bet that gets the kids out of the shop quick. On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Thom <[email protected]> wrote: > I would say if you "Protect" the pocket, and since the volume of the pocket > is only 825CF (less than the 1000CF discussed as "Unprotected", Think 4' x > 8' = 32 sf x 31.25 VF = 1000 CF) I wouldn't be concerned about any "Delay" > and if Smoke = Heat, rising into the pocket, the "Protection" should drive > both down when the protection activates. > > No NIST, just knows what happens to diesel exhaust in our shop. > > Happy TGIF > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:50 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: QR design area reduction > > Well, since everyone is guessing I'm willing also. Cover the floor > area from sprinklers at the main ceiling level (you said that the > "pocket" was 11' in the greater dimension) and 1, ignore the pocket or > 2, put a head in the pocket, through magic and sleight of hand, apply > the rule about not including the heads under roll-up doors. The > situation is the same (except for the height issue) in that only the > lower or higher head would fuse. I also saw a computer model from NIST > on smoke travel relative to large and small, "atria," "pockets,) etc. > On small stuff (and the maximum for small was pretty big) the smoke > tended to begin to fill the higher area but also cross horizontally. > Very rapidly a thermal barrier developed across the opening and the > smoke (visible heat) banked against it and ceased to infiltrate the to > the higher ceiling. So I started with guessing and I'm ending on that > note. > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Thom <[email protected]> wrote: >> Just my thoughts: 1) Your "Atrium" is too large to be a ceiling pocket > 32SF >> or less as allowed in the Reduced area for QR. 2) You don't say the > ceiling >> is sloped, not that it would matter if it when up to 23' because that also >> exceeds what is allowed to be used when applying the reduction. 3) Unless >> these areas are separated somehow or not located within the same >> compartment, In which case by using multiple design areas to allow the >> reduced area for QR where the "Atrium" is not located, my opinion is you >> can't use the Area reduction for QR in this situation. >> >> Except: (4) There are no unprotected ceiling pockets as allowed by >> 8.6.7 and 8.8.7 exceeding 32 ft2 (3 m2) >> >> So if you change the name of your "Atrium" to "Ceiling pocket" and protect >> it, is the new layout (Symantec's) allowed to use the QR/Area reduction? >> >> 8.6.7 Ceiling Pockets. >> 8.6.7.1 Sprinklers shall be required in all ceiling pockets. >> 8.6.7.2 The requirements of 8.6.7.1 shall not apply where all >> of the following are met: >> (1) The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does >> not exceed 1000 ft3 (28.3 m3). >> (2) The depth of the unprotected pocket does not exceed >> 36 in. (914 mm). >> (3) The entire floor under the unprotected ceiling pocket is >> protected by the sprinklers at the lower ceiling elevation. >> (4) Each unprotected ceiling pocket is separated from any >> adjacent unprotected ceiling pocket by a minimum 10 ft >> (3.05 m) horizontal distance. >> (5) The unprotected ceiling pocket is constructed of noncombustible >> or limited combustible construction. >> (6) Skylights not exceeding 32 ft2 (3m2) shall be permitted to >> have a plastic cover. >> (7) Quick response sprinklers are utilized throughout the >> compartment. >> >> So if as Roland say's "Word have meanings" and we can only know what the >> word's say, not what the author "Intended". Well, it sounds like you > place >> sprinklers in the "Atrium", change its name to "Ceiling Pocket", and use > the >> area reduction. >> >> It is Friday right? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 1:39 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: QR design area reduction >> >> Good question. Don't have an answer but I do have an opinion, but like >> all opinions . >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Ed Kramer <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I've got a light hazard dining area with a 10'-6" ceiling which meets all >>> the criteria for reducing the design area down to 912 sf. Well, almost >> all >>> the criteria. There is one small 'atrium' with a 23' ceiling height. > The >>> 'atrium' is only 6' x 11' and is protected by 1 sprinkler. >>> >>> >>> >>> Am I allowed to reduce the design area based on the 10'-6" ceiling > height, >>> or must I calculate a full 1,500 sf? Or more generically, how small > must >>> an area of higher ceiling be in order to ignore it when applying section >>> 11.2.3.2.3? >>> >>> >>> >>> Opinions? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ed Kramer >>> >>> Littleton, CO >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
