From my experience if the AHJ and the architect or engineer haven't settled which sprinkler standard is to be used before plans are locked down they haven't done their job.
That said sprinkler designers are often asked to bid jobs before or while AHJ's and architects are engaged in review. And sometimes the answer changes during review. Sometimes occupancy class, and type of construction are still in flux. Sometimes doing things too early causes subcontractors to duplicate effort. Being ready to early can simply be an effort at trying to make someone happy when they doesn't know what the want. bv ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Greenman " < rongreenman @ gmail .com> To: sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:51:43 PM Subject: Re: CPVC Applications David makes an excellent point. I once did a complex with two mixed use (apartments over mercantile) and one rec buildings (definitely 13), eight three -story multi-families, and half a dozen duplexes. For some reason most of the multis are 13R but some are 13, and some of the duplexes are 13D but two are 13R. I have tried to figure he rationale but the road layout, hydrant access, distance between buildings, etc. Every time I thought I had a systematic explanation there would be one anomaly. Ultimately I really don't care so never bothered to ask, but trying to figure this out has been an ongoing exercise in critical thinking/logic for my students for years. Back the point: It is what the architect and AHJ have agreed to. You can ask for the rationale, but something like this project wasn't a simple, arbitrary, irrational decision. Sometimes the tech defines the design. Sometimes the AHJ. And sometimes the A&E. And sometimes it's the obvious decision but sometimes it's not. On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:59 AM, David Blackwell < David.BLACKWELL@ llr . sc .gov> wrote: > It is generally prudent to start with the official occupancy > classification(s) indicated by the Architect and agreed upon by the > Building Official... when determining whether anything less than an NFPA 13 > system is allowed. > > This is because even if the building is within the scope of NFPA 13R, an > NFPA 13 system may be required by a building's design due to the Architect > designing the building to take credit for IBC exceptions for which only an > NFPA 13 system is allowed. > > There is a very good table in the 2006 IBC Commentary version illustrating > "Examples of Requirements Modified Through Use of Automatic Sprinkler > Systems" [Figure 903.3.1.1(2)]. It compared NFPA 13/13R/13D and > illustrated the differences such as with IBC 506.3 [area increase] which > only an NFPA 13 system could give you. It showed other similar "NFPA 13 > only" situations for qualification for Rating Reductions such as found in > 508.3.3, Table 601, and 708.3. > > > Respectfully, > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE , CFI I > Chief Engineer > Office of State Fire Marshal > SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, 141 Monticello Trail, > Columbia, SC 29203 > Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] > Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] > Email: David.Blackwell@ LLR .SC.GOV > Website: http :// www . scfiremarshal . llronline .com/ > > > Please note that you can sign up to receive automatic information on SC > Division of Fire and Life Safety current events, policies, laws and > procedures by visiting our Web site at: > http :// www . scfiremarshal . llronline .com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum -bounces@lists. firesprinkler .org [ mailto : > sprinklerforum -bounces@lists. firesprinkler .org] On Behalf Of Mark A. > Sornsin , P.E. > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 12:41 PM > To: sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > Subject: RE: CPVC Applications > > Whoohh - Save your breath, fella. > > Child care facilities (under the IBC anyway) fall into an I-4 > classification. There is an exception that kicks them into an "E" > classification; and there is a Day Care facility exception for 5 or fewer > persons that kicks you into R-3. But otherwise Day Care or Child Care are > to be classified I-4. > > Mark A. Sornsin , P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection > Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | > http :// www . kfiengineers .com > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum -bounces@lists. firesprinkler .org [ mailto : > sprinklerforum -bounces@lists. firesprinkler .org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:30 AM > To: sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > Subject: Re: CPVC Applications > > Rod, I can't imagine an AHJ calling a daycare 13R. Tell me how it falls > into any R occupancy. I can see him granting a variance to 13 that allows > omission of attic sprinklers if the design goal is life-safety only, but > he's taking a big risk. My read is that daycare, except in that one special > case where it's classified as an E, is a B occupancy and if configured > properly not need a system at all. Not endorsing one thing over the other, > just reading code. And how have you been? > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 7:25 AM, JD Gamble < jgamble @ lssofsheridan .com > >wrote: > > > I believe FlameGuard (Spears) is listed for Low Pressure Dry Systems > > as well ... > > > > http :// spearsmfg .com/** flameguard /FG-3-1010_0113_web.** pdf < http :// > > spea > > rsmfg .com/ flameguard /FG-3-1010_0113_web. pdf > > > > > ** > > Low Pressure Dry Pipe and Pre-action Systems In accordance with the > > UL® Listing, Spears® FlameGuard ® CPVC Fire Sprinkler Products may be > > used in Low Pressure Dry Pipe and Pre-action System applications in > > Light Hazard and Residential occupancies in accordance with NFPA 13, > > 13D and 13R when subject to the following additional limitations: > > A CPVC Low Pressure Dry Pipe or Pre-action System is a piping system > > intended for use where piping could be subjected to freezing > > temperatures and water filled pipe cannot be utilized. The minimum > > rated temperature is -20° F (-29° C). Low Pressure Dry Pipe systems > > contain compressed air or nitrogen > > (gas) having an internal gage pressure of not more than 15 psig (105 > kPa ). > > These specially designed systems require separate control valve > > mechanisms for this application (supplied by others) that activate to > > release water into the dry piping section and to the sprinkler heads. > > The water-filled portion of the system control device must be in an > > area protected from freezing. It is the installer's responsibility to > > be sure the system is installed in accordance with the limitations of > > this manual and specifications of a Dry Pipe or Pre-action Fire > > Sprinkler System design Engineer for proper control devices, pipe > > sizing, and other important design and maintenance criteria applicable > > to each project. CPVC dry systems must be designed with the following > > maximum water delivery time delay. > > > > ** > > > > > > > > JD Gamble > > Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan > > > > 307-763-3361 > > -----Original Message----- From: Forest Wilson > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 8:02 AM > > To: > > sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< sprinklerforum @lists. > > firespri > > nkler .org> > > Subject: Re: CPVC Applications > > > > > > I think Tyco has a CPVC listed for use in dry systems? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Rod DiBona < RodD @ rapidfireinc .com> wrote: > > > > Brian, > >> > >> Don't assume that because you have a wood framed building that you > >> must sprinkler the attic. Check with the engineer of record to see if > >> this system is supposed to be a 13 or 13R. Secondly you can't run > >> over an ordinary hazard room in a light hazard occupancy with cpvc > >> unless the room is 400 ft or less. And lastly CPVC is not listed for > >> a dry system and you can definitely not use it. A read of the > >> blazemaster install and specification manual is highly recommended. > >> > >> Rod at Rapid > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sprinklerforum -bounces@lists.** firesprinkler .org< > sprinklerforum -bounces@lists. firesprinkler .org>[ mailto : > >> sprinklerforum -**bounces@lists. firesprinkler .**org< sprinklerforum -bou > >> nces @lists. firesprinkler .org>] > >> On Behalf Of Brian Harris > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:43 AM > >> To: > >> sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< sprinklerforum @lists. > >> firespr > >> inkler .org> > >> Subject: CPVC Applications > >> > >> I'm doing a daycare facility and was leaning towards using > >> BlazeMaster CPVC but have a quick question. I know that it is listed > >> and approved for light hazard areas which is 90% of the project, what > >> do you do for the other 10%? Do I need to run steel for the Kitchen, > >> Janitor's Closet, and small Storage closet? Also, since this is a > >> wood framed building I need to sprinkle the Attic but since it cannot > >> be used for storage it is light hazard as well, any reason I can't use > CPVC for the dry system as well? > >> > >> Brian Harris, CET > >> BVS Systems Inc. > >> Sprinkler Division > >> bvssystemsinc .com< http ://** bvssystemsinc .com/ > >> < http :// bvssystemsinc .com/> > >> > > >> Phone: 704.896.9989 > >> Fax: 704.896.1935 > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> Sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< Sprinklerforum @lists. > >> firespr > >> inkler .org> > >> http ://lists. firesprinkler .**org/ listinfo . cgi /** > >> sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .**org< http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ > >> lis > >> tinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> Sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< Sprinklerforum @lists. > >> firespr > >> inkler .org> > >> http ://lists. firesprinkler .**org/ listinfo . cgi /** > >> sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .**org< http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ > >> lis > >> tinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org> > >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< Sprinklerforum @lists. > > firespri > > nkler .org> > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .**org/ listinfo . cgi /** > > sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .**org< http ://lists. firesprinkler > > .org/list > > info. cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org> > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum @lists.** firesprinkler .org< Sprinklerforum @lists. > > firespri > > nkler .org> > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .**org/ listinfo . cgi /** > > sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .**org< http ://lists. firesprinkler > > .org/list > > info. cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org> > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > rgreenman @bates. ctc . edu > > http :// www .bates. ctc . edu / fireprotection / > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE , SFPE , ASCET , NFPA, AFSA , NFSA , AFAA , NIBS, WSAFM , WFC , WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - > firesprinkler .org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please visit http :// www . symanteccloud > .com______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - > firesprinkler .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - > firesprinkler .org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreenman @bates. ctc . edu http :// www .bates. ctc . edu / fireprotection / 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE , SFPE , ASCET , NFPA, AFSA , NFSA , AFAA , NIBS, WSAFM , WFC , WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
