Your AHJ is interpreting incorrectly. 38F is not subject to freezing. I had this same argument the other day. I wrote a simple equation, stamped and sealed it and submitted it. I finally received my approval.
Using dry sprinklers when they are not necessary is not good fire protection in my opinion. Installing dry sprinklers is doing the owner a disservice. John Fire sprinklers save lives Sent from my iPad On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:33 PM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: > Sure, 8.4.9 Dry Sprinklers. > 8.4.9.1 Where dry sprinklers are connected to wet pipe sprinkler systems > protecting areas subject to freezing temperatures, the minimum exposed > length of the barrel of the dry sprinkler shall be in accordance with Table > 8.4.9.1. > > This section explicitly state where subject to freezing, and 38F isn't > subject to freezing. However, in my case the AHJ has interpreted in the > past that if it's not maintained at or above 40F it's subject to freezing. > > Thank You, > > Bob Knight, CET III > 208-318-3057 > www.Firebyknight.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of IPA > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:28 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > care to share? > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Nix the last question, I just found the answer. >> >> Thank You, >> >> Bob Knight, CET III >> 208-318-3057 >> www.Firebyknight.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Bob >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:09 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >> >> 13 words it, in the section on dry pipe systems, at or above 40F. >> Where do I find it that on a wet system that I don't need to apply the >> temperature in the same way? >> >> Thank You, >> >> Bob Knight, CET III >> 208-318-3057 >> www.Firebyknight.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> On Behalf Of John Denhardt >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:01 PM >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc >> >> Agree - we had done numerous cooler boxes and never have had an issue. >> Usually the stored products will be damaged if they freeze. In many >> case, the refrigeration unit shuts down if the temperature drops below >> a certain set temperature; 35 degree F is typical. >> >> Installing dry sprinklers where they are not required or necessarily >> is not good fire protection in my opinion. >> >> John >> >> Fire sprinklers save lives >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:54 AM, "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Exactly, we do 38F coolers with ESFR's. Never had a ..., I better >>> not say >> that might jinx it. >>> Ron F >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> John Denhardt >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:49 AM >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc >>> >>> If the area is not subject to freezing, no need for dry sprinklers. >>> NFPA >> 13 only requires dry sprinklers or other method when the area is >> subject to freezing AND can not be readily maintained above 40 degrees F. >>> >>> The above is my personal opinion ..... >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> Fire sprinklers save lives >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:42 AM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Ron, >>>> The temperature is maintained at 38F. The sprinklers used were EC >>>> OH SR dry sprinklers. >>>> >>>> Thank You, >>>> >>>> Bob Knight, CET III >>>> 208-318-3057 >>>> www.Firebyknight.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sprinklerforum >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> On Behalf Of [email protected] >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:37 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>>> >>>> A couple questions. If it is a cooler why do you need dry pendent >>>> heads? And if it has to be dry heads and they are on a wet system >>>> the RA could still be reduced couldn't it? >>>> >>>> Ron F >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sprinklerforum >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> On Behalf Of Bob >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:29 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>>> >>>> Ron, >>>> Yes this is a remodel adding only the cooler. The existing ceiling >>>> demand was well above the .2 need in the cooler. >>>> >>>> Thank You, >>>> >>>> Bob Knight, CET III >>>> 208-318-3057 >>>> www.Firebyknight.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sprinklerforum >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> On Behalf Of rongreenman . >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:11 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc >>>> >>>> If the job is just the cooler then I think all the heads is >>>> sufficient within the perimeter of the cooler. If it's a part of >>>> the larger job you need to calc all the possible design areas. Not >>>> knowing the layout I can't say but maybe the ceiling somewhere is a >>>> design area, the cooler is potentially a design area, etc. But he's >>>> nuts if he thinks you need to add other sprinklers not in the fire >>>> area >> to make the fire area be 1500 sqft. >>>> Real is real. Math is math. Often the twin don't meet. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Mike Hill <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't suppose that you are lucky enough to have a fire rated cooler. >>>>> >>>>> Common sense would say that you calculate the cooler. >>>>> >>>>> Common practice would say calculate the cooler and/or a 1500 sq. ft. >>>>> area outside of the cooler. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Hill >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of Bob >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:47 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>>>> >>>>> His stand is that I have one of three options that I have not used: >>>>> (1) Density/area curves of Figure 11.2.3.1.1 in accordance with >>>>> the density/area method of 11.2.3.2 >>>>> (2) The room that creates the greatest demand in accordance with >>>>> the room design method of 11.2.3.3 >>>>> (3) Special design areas in accordance with 11.2.3.4 >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind that this is a jurisdiction that has told me in the >>>>> past that you can't use the exceptions in 13 (this was before they >>>>> became part of the body), and that they can't use common sense. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank You, >>>>> >>>>> Bob Knight, CET III >>>>> 208-318-3057 >>>>> www.Firebyknight.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of Tim Stone >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:41 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>>>> >>>>> The Cooler is a closed in room with a space above. You calculate >>>>> all the heads inside the cooler if less than 1500 SF. If the area >>>>> outside the cooler is fully sprinklered then you probably have >>>>> performed calcs already. I'd ask the AHJ to review NFPA 13. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> G. Tim Stone >>>>> >>>>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC >>>>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler >>>>> Design and Consulting Services >>>>> >>>>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 >>>>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of Bob >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:12 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Cooler Calc >>>>> >>>>> I have a 1,392 sf cooler. I calc'ed the entire area of the cooler >>>>> and submitted. The AHJ is telling me that I need to calc >>>>> additional sprinklers at the ceiling to have a 1500 sf design >>>>> area. I don't think I need to do this, I was looking at this as a >>>>> separate fire area, and I don't see it being much different than >>>>> not adding heads below ducts or other large obstructions. Do I >>>>> need to calc additional sprinklers at the ceiling for this > application? >>>>> >>>>> Thank You, >>>>> >>>>> Bob Knight, CET III >>>>> 208-318-3057 >>>>> www.Firebyknight.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr >>>>> in >>>>> k >>>>> l >>>>> er.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr >>>>> in >>>>> k >>>>> l >>>>> er.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr >>>>> in >>>>> k >>>>> l >>>>> er.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr >>>>> in >>>>> k >>>>> l >>>>> er.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Greenman >>>> Instructor >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>> >>>> 253.680.7346 >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>> >>>> Member: >>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>>> >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. >>>> -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>> >>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. >>>> Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri >>>> nk >>>> l >>>> er.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri >>>> nk l er.org _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri >>>> nk >>>> l >>>> er.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri >>>> nk >>>> l >>>> er.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> kl er.org _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> kl >>> er.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
