The operative code section; 8.16.4.1.5 Water-filled piping shall be permitted to be installed in areas where the temperature is less than 40°F (4°C) when heat loss calculations performed by a professional engineer verify that the system will not freeze.
Bottom line as the code intends designers have to start thinking about the big picture and remember we are speaking of a SYSTEM (just like in the name of the standard); "System - a group of related parts that move or work together" It's pretty simple as a plan reviewer when I see, "by others" it gets rejected as this tells me the designer did not consider that part of the system, i.e. heat, freezing. No different than seismic, water supply, underground, supervision of control valves, backflow prevention.....it's one thing to have considered it in the design and note to be "furnished and installed by others" versus simply ignoring it entirely and writing "by others", ....others are going to do your design work ?. All too often these things are found in the field with everyone looking at everyone else saying "I told you this", I thought you were taking care of that", "Its not my problem" meanwhile the owner is questioning why. Its a synergy; architects, engineers, designers, contractors..........working together. How did Tom Berringer put it in Platoon; "Now, I got no fight with any man who does what he's told, but when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, we break down. Sincerely, John Drucker, CET Assistant Construction Official Fire Protection Subcode Official Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank Red Bank, New Jersey Email: [email protected] Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pete Schwab Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Cooler Calc Bob See 8.16.4.1.5 Below 8.16.4.1.1* Where any portion of a system is subject to freezing and the temperatures cannot be reliably maintained at or above 40°F (4°C), the system shall be installed as a dry pipe or preaction system. 8.16.4.1.1.1 The requirements of 8.16.4.1.1 shall not apply where alternate methods of freeze prevention are provided in accordance with one of the methods described in 8.16.4.1.2 through 8.16.4.1.4.1. 8.16.4.1.2 Unheated areas shall be permitted to be protected by antifreeze systems or by other systems specifically listed for the purpose. 8.16.4.1.3 Where aboveground water-filled supply pipes, risers, system risers, or feed mains pass through open areas, cold rooms, passageways, or other areas exposed to temperatures below 40°F (4°C), the pipe shall be permitted to be protected against freezing by insulating coverings, frostproof casings, or other means of maintaining a minimum temperature between 40°F and 120°F (4°C and 48.9°C). 8.16.4.1.4 Listed heat-tracing systems shall be permitted in accordance with 8.16.4.1.4.1 and 8.16.4.1.4.2. 8.16.4.1.4.1 Where used to protect branch lines, the heattracing system shall be specifically listed for use on branch lines. 8.16.4.1.4.2 Electric supervision of the heat-tracing system shall provide positive confirmation that the circuit is energized. 8.16.4.1.5 Water-filled piping shall be permitted to be installed in areas where the temperature is less than 40°F (4°C) when heat loss calculations performed by a professional engineer verify that the system will not freeze. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing & Engineering Technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com We're hiring great people at all of our locations! Please check out our website for the details! -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 3:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Cooler Calc 13 words it, in the section on dry pipe systems, at or above 40F. Where do I find it that on a wet system that I don't need to apply the temperature in the same way? Thank You, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057 www.Firebyknight.com -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:01 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc Agree - we had done numerous cooler boxes and never have had an issue. Usually the stored products will be damaged if they freeze. In many case, the refrigeration unit shuts down if the temperature drops below a certain set temperature; 35 degree F is typical. Installing dry sprinklers where they are not required or necessarily is not good fire protection in my opinion. John Fire sprinklers save lives Sent from my iPad On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:54 AM, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > Exactly, we do 38F coolers with ESFR's. Never had a ..., I better not > say that might jinx it. > Ron F > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > John Denhardt > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:49 AM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > If the area is not subject to freezing, no need for dry sprinklers. > NFPA 13 only requires dry sprinklers or other method when the area is subject to freezing AND can not be readily maintained above 40 degrees F. > > The above is my personal opinion ..... > > > John > > Fire sprinklers save lives > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:42 AM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Ron, >> The temperature is maintained at 38F. The sprinklers used were EC OH >> SR dry sprinklers. >> >> Thank You, >> >> Bob Knight, CET III >> 208-318-3057 >> www.Firebyknight.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:37 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >> >> A couple questions. If it is a cooler why do you need dry pendent >> heads? And if it has to be dry heads and they are on a wet system the >> RA could still be reduced couldn't it? >> >> Ron F >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Bob >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:29 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >> >> Ron, >> Yes this is a remodel adding only the cooler. The existing ceiling >> demand was well above the .2 need in the cooler. >> >> Thank You, >> >> Bob Knight, CET III >> 208-318-3057 >> www.Firebyknight.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of rongreenman . >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:11 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc >> >> If the job is just the cooler then I think all the heads is >> sufficient within the perimeter of the cooler. If it's a part of the >> larger job you need to calc all the possible design areas. Not >> knowing the layout I can't say but maybe the ceiling somewhere is a >> design area, the cooler is potentially a design area, etc. But he's >> nuts if he thinks you need to add other sprinklers not in the fire >> area to make the fire area be 1500 sqft. >> Real is real. Math is math. Often the twin don't meet. >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Mike Hill <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I don't suppose that you are lucky enough to have a fire rated cooler. >>> >>> Common sense would say that you calculate the cooler. >>> >>> Common practice would say calculate the cooler and/or a 1500 sq. ft. >>> area outside of the cooler. >>> >>> Mike Hill >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>> [email protected]] >>> On Behalf Of Bob >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:47 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>> >>> His stand is that I have one of three options that I have not used: >>> (1) Density/area curves of Figure 11.2.3.1.1 in accordance with the >>> density/area method of 11.2.3.2 >>> (2) The room that creates the greatest demand in accordance with the >>> room design method of 11.2.3.3 >>> (3) Special design areas in accordance with 11.2.3.4 >>> >>> Keep in mind that this is a jurisdiction that has told me in the >>> past that you can't use the exceptions in 13 (this was before they >>> became part of the body), and that they can't use common sense. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank You, >>> >>> Bob Knight, CET III >>> 208-318-3057 >>> www.Firebyknight.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>> [email protected]] >>> On Behalf Of Tim Stone >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:41 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc >>> >>> The Cooler is a closed in room with a space above. You calculate all >>> the heads inside the cooler if less than 1500 SF. If the area >>> outside the cooler is fully sprinklered then you probably have >>> performed calcs already. I'd ask the AHJ to review NFPA 13. >>> >>> Regards, >>> G. Tim Stone >>> >>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC >>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler >>> Design and Consulting Services >>> >>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 >>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>> [email protected]] >>> On Behalf Of Bob >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:12 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Cooler Calc >>> >>> I have a 1,392 sf cooler. I calc'ed the entire area of the cooler >>> and submitted. The AHJ is telling me that I need to calc additional >>> sprinklers at the ceiling to have a 1500 sf design area. I don't >>> think I need to do this, I was looking at this as a separate fire >>> area, and I don't see it being much different than not adding heads >>> below ducts or other large obstructions. Do I need to calc >>> additional sprinklers at the ceiling for this application? >>> >>> Thank You, >>> >>> Bob Knight, CET III >>> 208-318-3057 >>> www.Firebyknight.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> k >>> l >>> er.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> k >>> l >>> er.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> k >>> l >>> er.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> k >>> l >>> er.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> >> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. >> Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l er.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
