Just do it in antifreeze! <runs and hides> But seriously folks, if you're a member of the AFSA search the informal interpretations for this. I put in a question about this about 2-3 years ago when we were doing the meat prep room of a supermarket.
I'm not at work, so I can't provide more than that, sorry. Benjamin Young On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 4:59 PM, John Denhardt <[email protected] > wrote: > Your AHJ is interpreting incorrectly. 38F is not subject to freezing. > > I had this same argument the other day. I wrote a simple equation, > stamped and sealed it and submitted it. I finally received my approval. > > Using dry sprinklers when they are not necessary is not good fire > protection in my opinion. Installing dry sprinklers is doing the owner a > disservice. > > John > > Fire sprinklers save lives > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:33 PM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Sure, 8.4.9 Dry Sprinklers. > > 8.4.9.1 Where dry sprinklers are connected to wet pipe sprinkler systems > > protecting areas subject to freezing temperatures, the minimum exposed > > length of the barrel of the dry sprinkler shall be in accordance with > Table > > 8.4.9.1. > > > > This section explicitly state where subject to freezing, and 38F isn't > > subject to freezing. However, in my case the AHJ has interpreted in the > > past that if it's not maintained at or above 40F it's subject to > freezing. > > > > Thank You, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > www.Firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of IPA > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:28 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > > > care to share? > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Nix the last question, I just found the answer. > >> > >> Thank You, > >> > >> Bob Knight, CET III > >> 208-318-3057 > >> www.Firebyknight.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >> On Behalf Of Bob > >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:09 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > >> > >> 13 words it, in the section on dry pipe systems, at or above 40F. > >> Where do I find it that on a wet system that I don't need to apply the > >> temperature in the same way? > >> > >> Thank You, > >> > >> Bob Knight, CET III > >> 208-318-3057 > >> www.Firebyknight.com > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >> On Behalf Of John Denhardt > >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:01 PM > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > >> > >> Agree - we had done numerous cooler boxes and never have had an issue. > >> Usually the stored products will be damaged if they freeze. In many > >> case, the refrigeration unit shuts down if the temperature drops below > >> a certain set temperature; 35 degree F is typical. > >> > >> Installing dry sprinklers where they are not required or necessarily > >> is not good fire protection in my opinion. > >> > >> John > >> > >> Fire sprinklers save lives > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:54 AM, "[email protected]" > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Exactly, we do 38F coolers with ESFR's. Never had a ..., I better > >>> not say > >> that might jinx it. > >>> Ron F > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>> John Denhardt > >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:49 AM > >>> To: <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > >>> > >>> If the area is not subject to freezing, no need for dry sprinklers. > >>> NFPA > >> 13 only requires dry sprinklers or other method when the area is > >> subject to freezing AND can not be readily maintained above 40 degrees > F. > >>> > >>> The above is my personal opinion ..... > >>> > >>> > >>> John > >>> > >>> Fire sprinklers save lives > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPad > >>> > >>> On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:42 AM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Ron, > >>>> The temperature is maintained at 38F. The sprinklers used were EC > >>>> OH SR dry sprinklers. > >>>> > >>>> Thank You, > >>>> > >>>> Bob Knight, CET III > >>>> 208-318-3057 > >>>> www.Firebyknight.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Sprinklerforum > >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>> On Behalf Of [email protected] > >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:37 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > >>>> > >>>> A couple questions. If it is a cooler why do you need dry pendent > >>>> heads? And if it has to be dry heads and they are on a wet system > >>>> the RA could still be reduced couldn't it? > >>>> > >>>> Ron F > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Sprinklerforum > >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>> On Behalf Of Bob > >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:29 AM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > >>>> > >>>> Ron, > >>>> Yes this is a remodel adding only the cooler. The existing ceiling > >>>> demand was well above the .2 need in the cooler. > >>>> > >>>> Thank You, > >>>> > >>>> Bob Knight, CET III > >>>> 208-318-3057 > >>>> www.Firebyknight.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Sprinklerforum > >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>> On Behalf Of rongreenman . > >>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:11 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > >>>> > >>>> If the job is just the cooler then I think all the heads is > >>>> sufficient within the perimeter of the cooler. If it's a part of > >>>> the larger job you need to calc all the possible design areas. Not > >>>> knowing the layout I can't say but maybe the ceiling somewhere is a > >>>> design area, the cooler is potentially a design area, etc. But he's > >>>> nuts if he thinks you need to add other sprinklers not in the fire > >>>> area > >> to make the fire area be 1500 sqft. > >>>> Real is real. Math is math. Often the twin don't meet. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Mike Hill <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I don't suppose that you are lucky enough to have a fire rated > cooler. > >>>>> > >>>>> Common sense would say that you calculate the cooler. > >>>>> > >>>>> Common practice would say calculate the cooler and/or a 1500 sq. ft. > >>>>> area outside of the cooler. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike Hill > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>> [email protected]] > >>>>> On Behalf Of Bob > >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:47 PM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > >>>>> > >>>>> His stand is that I have one of three options that I have not used: > >>>>> (1) Density/area curves of Figure 11.2.3.1.1 in accordance with > >>>>> the density/area method of 11.2.3.2 > >>>>> (2) The room that creates the greatest demand in accordance with > >>>>> the room design method of 11.2.3.3 > >>>>> (3) Special design areas in accordance with 11.2.3.4 > >>>>> > >>>>> Keep in mind that this is a jurisdiction that has told me in the > >>>>> past that you can't use the exceptions in 13 (this was before they > >>>>> became part of the body), and that they can't use common sense. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank You, > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Knight, CET III > >>>>> 208-318-3057 > >>>>> www.Firebyknight.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>> [email protected]] > >>>>> On Behalf Of Tim Stone > >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:41 AM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > >>>>> > >>>>> The Cooler is a closed in room with a space above. You calculate > >>>>> all the heads inside the cooler if less than 1500 SF. If the area > >>>>> outside the cooler is fully sprinklered then you probably have > >>>>> performed calcs already. I'd ask the AHJ to review NFPA 13. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> G. Tim Stone > >>>>> > >>>>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > >>>>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler > >>>>> Design and Consulting Services > >>>>> > >>>>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > >>>>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>> [email protected]] > >>>>> On Behalf Of Bob > >>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:12 PM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Cooler Calc > >>>>> > >>>>> I have a 1,392 sf cooler. I calc'ed the entire area of the cooler > >>>>> and submitted. The AHJ is telling me that I need to calc > >>>>> additional sprinklers at the ceiling to have a 1500 sf design > >>>>> area. I don't think I need to do this, I was looking at this as a > >>>>> separate fire area, and I don't see it being much different than > >>>>> not adding heads below ducts or other large obstructions. Do I > >>>>> need to calc additional sprinklers at the ceiling for this > > application? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank You, > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Knight, CET III > >>>>> 208-318-3057 > >>>>> www.Firebyknight.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > >>>>> in > >>>>> k > >>>>> l > >>>>> er.org > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > >>>>> in > >>>>> k > >>>>> l > >>>>> er.org > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > >>>>> in > >>>>> k > >>>>> l > >>>>> er.org > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > >>>>> in > >>>>> k > >>>>> l > >>>>> er.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Ron Greenman > >>>> Instructor > >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>>> > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>>> > >>>> 253.680.7346 > >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>>> > >>>> Member: > >>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >>>> > >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > >>>> -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>>> > >>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > >>>> Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>> nk > >>>> l > >>>> er.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>> nk l er.org _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>> nk > >>>> l > >>>> er.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>> nk > >>>> l > >>>> er.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > >>> kl er.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > >>> kl > >>> er.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
