No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether the door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the 'exposed sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive, course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is based on temp AND velocity.
I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a little early today- I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :) B-rad On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you Richard and Brad. > > These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this point > we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up, we > were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be expected > to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in > "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by > the committee if no other testing has been done. > > Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector > accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of > this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I > know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going > too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the > following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers > are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since > they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can > I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to > ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6) > different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses". > First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have > their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most > preferred but probably won't be > accepted. > > (1) Build a wall. > (2) Install a beam. > (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be > installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since > the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads > every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. > (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is > acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will > clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This > would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No > apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. > (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is > acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This > would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. > (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but > rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for > Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be > between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even > with the deflector. > > Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see > any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? > > I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen > to me ramble on. > > Thanks, > Sean VG > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Casterline > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > Sean, I found this in the archives: > ***** > Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room > (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the > sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit. > > In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a > wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and > uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be > installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed" > sidewall be installed elsewhere? > > Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the sprinkler > be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC responses from the > committee that would help answer the question? > > Thoughts? > > Duane Johnson, PE > Program Manager > Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research > Services National Institutes of Health > 301-496-0487 > > > Duane, > > NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and horizontal > sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from. > > Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a > pendant. > > > > Dale F. Wingard, SET > Design Manager > Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. > 251.649.2034 > [email protected] > > > ******** > Brad > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > On Behalf Of Richard Carr > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall. > > > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: [email protected] > Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: [email protected] > Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > Hi All, > > I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't > loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. > > Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, > vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, > ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from > branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, > sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With > spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to > backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall > face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? > > The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something > like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no, > there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please > help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and design > parameters. > Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can > interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and > white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly > appreciated. > > Thank you for your time and help! > > Thanks, > Sean VG > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
