*coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to trim threads when at home using my phone. On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> wrote:
> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. > I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though > because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether the > door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the 'exposed > sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. > If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would > advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive, > course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for > water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the > velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is > based on temp AND velocity. > > I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a little > early today- > I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the > link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life > application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :) > > B-rad > On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thank you Richard and Brad. >> >> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this >> point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up, >> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be >> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in >> "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by >> the committee if no other testing has been done. >> >> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector >> accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of >> this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I >> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going >> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the >> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers >> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since >> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can >> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to >> ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6) >> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses". >> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have >> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most >> preferred but probably won't be >> accepted. >> >> (1) Build a wall. >> (2) Install a beam. >> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be >> installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since >> the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads >> every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. >> (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is >> acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will >> clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This >> would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No >> apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. >> (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is >> acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This >> would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. >> (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but >> rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for >> Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be >> between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even >> with the deflector. >> >> Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see >> any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? >> >> I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen >> to me ramble on. >> >> Thanks, >> Sean VG >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad >> Casterline >> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? >> >> Sean, I found this in the archives: >> ***** >> Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room >> (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the >> sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit. >> >> In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a >> wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and >> uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be >> installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed" >> sidewall be installed elsewhere? >> >> Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the >> sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC >> responses from the committee that would help answer the question? >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Duane Johnson, PE >> Program Manager >> Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research >> Services National Institutes of Health >> 301-496-0487 >> >> >> Duane, >> >> NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and horizontal >> sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from. >> >> Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a >> pendant. >> >> >> >> Dale F. Wingard, SET >> Design Manager >> Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. >> 251.649.2034 >> [email protected] >> >> >> ******** >> Brad >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Richard Carr >> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? >> >> Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall. >> >> >> >> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: [email protected] >> Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? >> >> Hi All, >> >> I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't >> loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. >> >> Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? >> >> Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, >> vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, >> ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from >> branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, >> sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With >> spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to >> backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall >> face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? >> >> The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to >> something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of >> now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, >> please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and >> design parameters. >> Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people >> can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and >> white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you for your time and help! >> >> Thanks, >> Sean VG >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
