Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at the bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling?
*Success Through Code Compliance* *Rahe Loftin, PE * *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* *General Services Administration* *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* *c - 817-371-3102* *o - 817-978-7299* On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep- > 1) you're welcome > 2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for > prompting the ponderance > 3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a > baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but with > a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point might > not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under it, > and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being above > the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and cold > pocket". > The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 sidewalls > with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to work > with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways. > 4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime > candidates for some serious fire modeling. . . > > wbr, Brad > On Dec 22, 2015 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > *coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to > > enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to > trim > > threads when at home using my phone. > > On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. > >> I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though > >> because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether > the > >> door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the > 'exposed > >> sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. > >> If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would > >> advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive, > >> course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for > >> water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the > >> velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is > >> based on temp AND velocity. > >> > >> I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a > >> little early today- > >> I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the > >> link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life > >> application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :) > >> > >> B-rad > >> On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Thank you Richard and Brad. > >>> > >>> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this > >>> point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane > brought up, > >>> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be > >>> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be > installed in > >>> "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" > by > >>> the committee if no other testing has been done. > >>> > >>> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector > >>> accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining > characteristics of > >>> this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as > I > >>> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am > going > >>> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states > the > >>> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall > sprinklers > >>> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". > Since > >>> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, > can > >>> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to > >>> ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from > (6) > >>> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses". > >>> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) > have > >>> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the > most > >>> preferred but probably won't be > >>> accepted. > >>> > >>> (1) Build a wall. > >>> (2) Install a beam. > >>> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be > >>> installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. > Since > >>> the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the > heads > >>> every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. > >>> (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is > >>> acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it > will > >>> clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. > This > >>> would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the > sprinklers. No > >>> apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. > >>> (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is > >>> acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. > This > >>> would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. > >>> (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but > >>> rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the > definition for > >>> Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" > high, be > >>> between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least > even > >>> with the deflector. > >>> > >>> Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see > >>> any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? > >>> > >>> I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to > listen > >>> to me ramble on. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Sean VG > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > >>> Casterline > >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > wall? > >>> > >>> Sean, I found this in the archives: > >>> ***** > >>> Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a > room > >>> (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the > >>> sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit. > >>> > >>> In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a > >>> wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and > >>> uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to > be > >>> installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed" > >>> sidewall be installed elsewhere? > >>> > >>> Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the > >>> sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC > >>> responses from the committee that would help answer the question? > >>> > >>> Thoughts? > >>> > >>> Duane Johnson, PE > >>> Program Manager > >>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research > >>> Services National Institutes of Health > >>> 301-496-0487 > >>> > >>> > >>> Duane, > >>> > >>> NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and > >>> horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected > from. > >>> > >>> Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a > >>> pendant. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dale F. Wingard, SET > >>> Design Manager > >>> Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. > >>> 251.649.2034 > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > >>> ******** > >>> Brad > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>> [email protected]] > >>> On Behalf Of Richard Carr > >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > wall? > >>> > >>> Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > >>> > >>> > >>> -------- Original message -------- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > >>> > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't > >>> loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. > >>> > >>> Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > >>> > >>> Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, > >>> vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray > sprinklers, > >>> ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from > >>> branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, > >>> sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With > >>> spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to > >>> backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall > >>> face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? > >>> > >>> The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to > >>> something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of > >>> now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is > required, > >>> please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and > >>> design parameters. > >>> Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people > >>> can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black > and > >>> white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly > >>> appreciated. > >>> > >>> Thank you for your time and help! > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Sean VG > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
