Look in 13/2013 8.15.5.1. Specifically says to use a sidewall in an elevator pit. Commentary in the Handbook (p. 397) discusses the justification(s).
On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Rahe Loftin - 7PMC <[email protected]> wrote: > Charles, > True if the elevator car is within 12 inches of the head but, of course, > not when it is any other position. Furthermore, what about the listing of > the sidewall head for a flat, horizontal, smooth ceiling? This certainly > does not describe the bottom of an elevator car. > > > > *Success Through Code Compliance* > > *Rahe Loftin, PE * > *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* > *General Services Administration* > *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* > *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* > *c - 817-371-3102* > *o - 817-978-7299* > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Charles Thurston <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hello Rahe, > > > > Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft. > > > > Friday, December 25, 2015, 7:11:21 AM, you wrote: > > > > > Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at > > the > > > bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling? > > > > > > > > > *Success Through Code Compliance* > > > > > *Rahe Loftin, PE * > > > *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* > > > *General Services Administration* > > > *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* > > > *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* > > > *c - 817-371-3102* > > > *o - 817-978-7299* > > > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Brad Casterline < > [email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep- > > >> 1) you're welcome > > >> 2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for > > >> prompting the ponderance > > >> 3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a > > >> baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but > > with > > >> a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point > > might > > >> not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under > > it, > > >> and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being > > above > > >> the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and > > cold > > >> pocket". > > >> The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 > > sidewalls > > >> with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to > work > > >> with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways. > > >> 4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime > > >> candidates for some serious fire modeling. . . > > > > >> wbr, Brad > > >> On Dec 22, 2015 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > >> > *coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to > > >> > enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how > to > > >> trim > > >> > threads when at home using my phone. > > >> > On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. > > >> >> I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though > > >> >> because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and > whether > > >> the > > >> >> door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the > > >> 'exposed > > >> >> sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. > > >> >> If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I > > would > > >> >> advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some > > primitive, > > >> >> course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times > > for > > >> >> water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) > slow > > the > > >> >> velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- > > RTI is > > >> >> based on temp AND velocity. > > >> >> > > >> >> I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a > > >> >> little early today- > > >> >> I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post > > the > > >> >> link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real > > life > > >> >> application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :) > > >> >> > > >> >> B-rad > > >> >> On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> Thank you Richard and Brad. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to > this > > >> >>> point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane > > >> brought up, > > >> >>> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and > be > > >> >>> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be > > >> installed in > > >> >>> "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated > > risks" > > >> by > > >> >>> the committee if no other testing has been done. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector > > >> >>> accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining > > >> characteristics of > > >> >>> this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As > far > > as > > >> I > > >> >>> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I > > am > > >> going > > >> >>> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures > > states > > >> the > > >> >>> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall > > >> sprinklers > > >> >>> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". > > >> Since > > >> >>> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper > > operation, > > >> can > > >> >>> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from > > floor to > > >> >>> ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing > > from > > >> (6) > > >> >>> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated > > guesses". > > >> >>> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next > > (3) > > >> have > > >> >>> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is > > the > > >> most > > >> >>> preferred but probably won't be > > >> >>> accepted. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> (1) Build a wall. > > >> >>> (2) Install a beam. > > >> >>> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can > be > > >> >>> installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be > sufficient. > > >> Since > > >> >>> the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space > the > > >> heads > > >> >>> every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. > > >> >>> (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since > this > > is > > >> >>> acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, > it > > >> will > > >> >>> clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to > > operate. > > >> This > > >> >>> would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the > > >> sprinklers. No > > >> >>> apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. > > >> >>> (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is > > >> >>> acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. > > >> This > > >> >>> would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. > > >> >>> (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, > but > > >> >>> rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the > > >> definition for > > >> >>> Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" > > >> high, be > > >> >>> between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at > least > > >> even > > >> >>> with the deflector. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do > you > > see > > >> >>> any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to > > >> listen > > >> >>> to me ramble on. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Thanks, > > >> >>> Sean VG > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > >> >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > > >> >>> Casterline > > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > > >> wall? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Sean, I found this in the archives: > > >> >>> ***** > > >> >>> Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of > a > > >> room > > >> >>> (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the > > >> >>> sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away > > from a > > >> >>> wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed > pendents > > and > > >> >>> uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" > sidewalls > > to > > >> be > > >> >>> installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed" > > >> >>> sidewall be installed elsewhere? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the > > >> >>> sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC > > >> >>> responses from the committee that would help answer the question? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Thoughts? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Duane Johnson, PE > > >> >>> Program Manager > > >> >>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of > Research > > >> >>> Services National Institutes of Health > > >> >>> 301-496-0487 > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Duane, > > >> >>> > > >> >>> NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and > > >> >>> horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are > projected > > >> from. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room > as > > a > > >> >>> pendant. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Dale F. Wingard, SET > > >> >>> Design Manager > > >> >>> Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. > > >> >>> 251.649.2034 > > >> >>> [email protected] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> ******** > > >> >>> Brad > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > >> >>> [email protected]] > > >> >>> On Behalf Of Richard Carr > > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > > >> wall? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a > > wall. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -------- Original message -------- > > >> >>> From: [email protected] > > >> >>> Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > >> >>> Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > wall? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Hi All, > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I can't check the forum archives right now because the website > isn't > > >> >>> loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, > > >> >>> vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray > > >> sprinklers, > > >> >>> ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking > > from > > >> >>> branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, > > upright, > > >> >>> sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. > With > > >> >>> spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from > upright > > to > > >> >>> backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to > > sidewall > > >> >>> face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? > > >> >>> > > >> >>> The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to > > >> >>> something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" > > As of > > >> >>> now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is > > >> required, > > >> >>> please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement > > and > > >> >>> design parameters. > > >> >>> Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that > > people > > >> >>> can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for > > "black > > >> and > > >> >>> white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are > greatly > > >> >>> appreciated. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Thank you for your time and help! > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Thanks, > > >> >>> Sean VG > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> >>> [email protected] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> >>> [email protected] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> >>> [email protected] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> >>> [email protected] > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > > > >> > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Charles mailto:[email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
