I'll try one time then give up.
This was never really about activation times and obstruction issue. You
have a fair bit of flexibility with the attic sprinklers...16-22" down.
The problem is when you have a varying roof deck, from a design side -
for guys that try to be as correct as possible, it is darn near
impossible to get this correct. Again the only way I can see to fix it
from the descriptions here is hang the main much lower than you would
normally for a system like this and then field cut every sprig so that
you are 16-22" below the insulation at the point the sprinkler is
located. That amount of labor was likely not included in the bid as it
is pretty easy for a decent design guy to hit those sprigs or even not
use sprigs if you have a consistent roof deck.
The idea of getting the builder to create a fairly smooth deck was a
good idea as it seems that it was just done haphazardly by the insulator.
Our job is not just about activation times and stuff like that (which is
vitally important). It is also about getting the correct material
fabricated so the fitter can install the system in a timely manner.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:[email protected]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 3/29/2016 3:48 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
Well, if you guys say so then fine, I appologize.
I just woke up from a nap and, the set-up is still clear-- I just don't
think the problem is as dramatic as you guys do.
We have not had to wet the underside of the deck since the 'old style'
days. So to me it is an obstrution issue, all along the path of the throw.
The deflectors are angled and the same angle is good for up to 30 feet of
throw.
Technically you could chip out enough insulation directly above the heads,
say one square foot by whatever depth to get min 16" deflector distance...,
could you not?
Or maybey I should go back to bed and wake up as a shoe salesman.
Brad
On Mar 29, 2016 3:37 PM, "Brian Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
Travis-
Yup that about sums it up, I thought I was losing my mind there for a
minute.....
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Travis Mack
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 4:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tyco Attic Heads
Brian:
Your problem has been very clear from the beginning.
My guess is you would have to drop the main to about 2' below the lowest
point of insulation. Then field cut every sprig. Couple that with a sloping
dry system and you have an installation nightmare.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 29, 2016, at 12:58 PM, Brian Harris <[email protected]>
wrote:
Brad-
You're missing the point or maybe I haven't explained it clearly which
is entirely probable. The deflector distance is no longer taken from the
roof deck, it has to be taken from the bottom of the insulation. With the
insulation varying greatly in thickness it is damn near impossible to
install the system with some reasonable sense of order. Hence the reason
for "some kind of iso-surface".
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Brad Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Tyco Attic Heads
In other words, only where the intermediate members exceed 10" depth,
will it Maybe need a shave - a few inches deep by six feet long.
It is ludicrous to insist on some kind of insulation iso-surface for
things to work right!
On Mar 29, 2016 12:28 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]>
wrote:
It would only be a problem if the rafter depth plus gob depth
exceeded deflector depth, so you're looking at 16" to 22" (6"
variation, like you said).
But in that regard, it is not an activation issue, it is only an
obstruction issue.
Shave it where necessary to not be an obstruction?
On Mar 29, 2016 12:07 PM, "Brian Harris" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Brad-
The real issue we're having is the haphazard way the sprayed on
insulation was installed, there's no way to establish minimum &
maximum deflector distances.
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 11:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Tyco Attic Heads
Nope. Smoothness above the sprinkler only affects activation times,
and the differences are only a few seconds.
Do you worry if the intermediate framing members are 2x4, 2x6, 2x8,
or
2x10 (a 6" variation)? Do you worry if they are perpendicular or
parallel to the throw? No, because min deflector distance for
back-to-back at the peak is 16". This is to get the throw beneath
the 'unsmoothness' of the bottom of the deck.
The U.L. tests of Tyco BB heads 'started' with previously listed QR,
EC
heads- only the Deflectors were changed, and the throw patterns at
different pressures were measured. They did that by not changing the
bottom of the deck or changing deflector distance, but by raising
and lowering the Floor :).
And actually I think a little roughness at the bottom of the deck
might even enhance activation a bit-- but I am certainly no
Sprinkler
Scientist- and the Modeling of BB heads activation and patterns I
have done has been rather coarse, i.e., quick and dirty ;)
b
On Mar 29, 2016 9:46 AM, "Brian Harris" <[email protected]>
wrote:
I talked with tech support and while he wasn't too concerned about
the roughness off the insulation he did agree the insulation needs
to be "shaved" to a uniform depth to assure proper deflector
distances.
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce
Verhei
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tyco Attic Heads
I like Matt's advice. Tyco may have information from original test
series.
Sometimes some of conditions are to meet extreme distance or a
minimum available pressure.
While I'd repeat that Tyco's comments would apply to this
particular project only, could you post?
Best
Bruce
On Mar 29, 2016, at 06:41, Matt Grise <[email protected]> wrote:
I would call tyco's technical hotline.
Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II Sales Engineer Alliance Fire
Protection
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116
*Licensed in KS & MO
913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.526.7443 cell
www. AFPsprink.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Brian Harris
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Tyco Attic Heads
"bounce..."
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Brian Harris
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Tyco Attic Heads
Working on a project that we've installed Tyco attic heads and the
GC
has now gone in and added roughly several inches of spray on
insulation.
When I say roughly I mean roughly, the depth varies from 6" to 12"
with no consistency what so ever. I've told them that most of the
piping will have to be lowered to stay within the required
clearances but I also think the insulation needs to be "shaved" to
a smooth consistent finish, obviously that didn't go over so well.
Since attic heads are considered extended coverage I think it's
safe to assume they need to be installed per the requirements of
NFPA as well, under a smooth flat surface. Am I missing something?
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Sprinkler Division
bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935
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