*Without*. Sorry. Coming off a long weekend. Always obtain an owner's certificate.
Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org Enroll Now for Level 2 VIP Classes AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for apprentices is live classroom training that comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. A new Level 2 class begins Oct. 8, 2024. Click here <https://www.firesprinkler.org/sprinkler-fitter-apprentice-training-vip/> to learn more and enroll! On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 12:58 PM Spectrum <[email protected]> wrote: > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] > “A contractor or an AHJ moving forward with a properly signed certificate > is asking for increased liability.” > > Did you mean “with” OR “without” ? > > Timothy Goins > RME & SCR holder > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Denhardt <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2024 8:14 AM > *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing > > Matt - Please be careful in what you state. > > NFPA 13 only references you stated are in the annex which are typical > suggestions. The annex list is not to be used without fully understanding > the specific process and the actual descriptions in the body of the > standard. Relying on the annex for your determination of a hazard > could lead to an issue. > > I also want to state that I really like what I'm reading > from other posts. I have been beating the drum for over 5 years > categorizing the hazard, water supply evaluations, and other items are > engineering. In the real world where lawyers are involved, a technician > who does not have a professional engineers license is exposing themselves > to liability. The SFPE Position paper 2020-1 which has been endorsed by > many associations including AFAA, AFSA, ASCET, NICET, NFSA, NSPA, and > others is very clear.. The "Design Basis - Owner Certificate" is the > owner's or owner's agent responsibility. Period! NFPA 13 requires this > certificate to be submitted with the working plans. A contractor or an AHJ > moving forward with a properly signed certificate is asking for increased > liability. > > NFPA 13 -2025 - 28.1.1.1 - Working plans submittals shall include the > following: (4) - Signed owner's certificate > > Heck - this requirement has been around for a bit. The concept of the > Owner's Certificate was included in the 2002 edition of NFPA 13. > > As part of your proposal and contract for a project, insist on a properly > filled and executed certificate. The sample in the annex is a starting > point. If you feel the need to add information, make a form and have the > responsible party take the liability off you. > > Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions on this topic. > AFSA's position is clear.and my technical team understands this position. > > SFPE position's paper is available on the web by searching SFPE Position > statement 2020-1, PS 2020-1 The Engineer and the Engineering Technician > Designing Fire Protection Systems > > *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its > technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting > engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, > nor relied upon, as such.* > > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > > > Enroll Now for Level 2 VIP Classes > > AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for apprentices is live classroom > training that comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way > to ensure your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. A new > Level 2 class begins Oct. 8, 2024. Click here > <https://www.firesprinkler.org/sprinkler-fitter-apprentice-training-vip/> > to learn more and enroll! > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:51 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I love all you guys. I really do. (Even you Todd) >> >> But, Hire an Engineer, or Should be provided by an Engineer, just does >> not work out here in the trenches. >> >> The answer is there in 13. Even "extruding" by a 3-D printer is >> extruding. I had to do Metal Working for folks cutting 4x8 sheets of >> aluminum. >> There is not a distinction. Some AHJ's see that and live by it. >> >> IS it the intent? Probably not. >> >> But it IS what the book says. >> >> Which is the only thing we have in most cases. >> >> I really wish we could kick it back. But more times than not, they just >> go to the next person in line. >> >> Just saying. Those are not really answers to the questions. >> >> Rant over.. >> >> R/ >> Matt >> >> >> *Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, C.E.T.* >> >> *Ferguson Fire Design, LLC* >> >> D: (602) 337-0721 <http://(602)%20337-0721> C: (307) 236-8249 >> <http://(307)%20236-8249> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Craig Hanson <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 12:48 PM >> *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < >> [email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing >> >> *Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO >> NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the >> sender. * >> ------------------------------ >> They need to provide for you the hazard analysis that should have been >> done by an FPE and in accordance with IFC 104.7.2 and NFPA 13: 4.2(2022). >> The AHJ should have requested that information also. These are tricky >> operations as dissimilar metals create a deflagration issue. the design may >> also be outside the scope of the NFPA 13 due to the process involved. Their >> insurance company should also be requiring a hazard analysis. >> >> >> >> Craig D. Hanson, CFPS >> Fire Division Manager >> West Coast Code Consultants, Inc. (WC³) >> Meridian Satellite Office >> *C:* 253.225.9977 | *E:* [email protected] | www.WC-3.com >> <https://www.wc-3.com/> >> *Teaming With Your Community to Make a Difference* >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 12:21 PM Fpdcdesign <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> +1 for Tim Stone. Too often the contractor or their estimator are asked >> to figure out design criteria. That should fall upon the FPE. >> >> Todd Williams >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> Stonington, CT >> 860-608-4559 >> >> >> On Oct 24, 2024 at 1:04 PM, <Tstone52 <[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> It should be recommended that an “Architect” or “Engineer of Record” >> should provide you with a Code Review. >> >> Or hire a “Fire Protection Engineer” to assist you. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> *G. Tim Stone* >> >> >> >> *G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC* >> >> *NICET Level III Engineering Technician* >> >> *Fire Protection Sprinkler Design* >> >> *and Consulting Services* >> >> >> >> * 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452* >> >> * CELL: (802) 373-0638 * >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> *From:* Bobby Welch <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 12:57 PM >> *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < >> [email protected]> >> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Metal manufacturing >> >> >> >> I have a building were they are making metal products by multiple >> processes including Metal Casting of steel, Metal Forging, Additive >> Manufacturing and hot rolling. Most of the building is open warehouse where >> they are producing metal products with 3D printers. NFPA has metal >> workings listed as ordinary hazard but also has Die Casting and Metal >> extruding under Extra hazard group 1. Does anyone know where I would start >> to figure out what hazard is required for this building? >> >> Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer >> *KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY* >> 8090 N Dixie Dr, Dayton, OH 45414 >> P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457 >> [email protected] | www.koorsen.com >> >> *24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050* | [email protected] >> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum >> mailing list: >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> SprinklerForum mailing list: >> >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> SprinklerForum mailing list: >> >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> > > And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; > and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an > heart of flesh… > Eze 11:19 >
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