[Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing

[John Denhardt]

Not that I remember but all it takes is to submit a Public Input for the 2028.  I will putting updating the owner’s certificate and the aboveground test certificate on the agenda for the AFSA TAC to discuss.  Thanks, John John August Denhardt, P.E Vice President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association 301-343-1457 Are you a member with a technical question?  Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that AFSA provides is Technical Reviews by our Technical Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. Visit www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview to submit a question today! (Member login required.)   On Oct 29, 2024, at 00:45, Eric Rieve <e...@rievefire.com> wrote:  _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org John,   Has there ever been a push/attempt to add the occupancy classification as a question on the owner’s certificate?   Thanks, Eric Rieve, SET Rieve Fire Protection   From: John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2024 1:00 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing   Without.  Sorry.  Coming off a long weekend.   Always obtain an owner's certificate.   Thanks, John   John August Denhardt, PE Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org     Enroll Now for Level 2 VIP Classes AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for apprentices is live classroom training that comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. A new Level 2 class begins Oct. 8, 2024. Click here to learn more and enroll!         On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 12:58 PM Spectrum <tgo...@rgv.rr.com> wrote: _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org “A contractor or an AHJ moving forward with a properly signed certificate is asking for increased liability.”   Did you mean “with” OR “without” ?   Timothy Goins RME & SCR holder   From: John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2024 8:14 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing   Matt - Please be careful in what you state.   NFPA 13 only references you stated are in the annex which are typical suggestions.  The annex list is not to be used without fully understanding the specific process and the actual descriptions in the body of the standard.  Relying on the annex for your determination of a hazard could lead to an issue.   I also want to state that I really like what I'm reading from other posts.  I have been beating the drum for over 5 years categorizing the hazard, water supply evaluations, and other items are engineering.  In the real world where lawyers are involved, a technician who does not have a professional engineers license is exposing themselves to liability.  The SFPE Position paper 2020-1 which has been endorsed by many associations including AFAA, AFSA, ASCET, NICET, NFSA, NSPA, and others is very clear..  The "Design Basis - Owner Certificate" is the owner's or owner's agent responsibility.  Period!  NFPA 13 requires this certificate to be submitted with the working plans.  A contractor or an AHJ moving forward with a properly signed certificate is asking for increased liability.   NFPA 13 -2025 - 28.1.1.1 - Working plans submittals shall include the following:  (4) - Signed owner's certificate   Heck - this requirement has been around for a bit.  The concept of the Owner's Certificate was included in the 2002 edition of NFPA 13.   As part of your proposal and contract for a project, insist on a properly filled and executed certificate.  The sample in the annex is a starting point.  If you feel the need to add information, make a form and have the responsible party take the liability off you.   Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions on this topic.  AFSA's position is clear.and my technical team understands this position.    SFPE position's paper is available on the web by searching SFPE Position statement 2020-1, PS 2020-1 The Engineer and the Engineering Technician Designing Fire Protection Systems The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.   Thanks, John   John August Denhardt, PE Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org     Enroll Now for Level 2 VIP Classes AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for apprentices is live classroom training that comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. A new Level 2 class begins Oct. 8, 2024. Click here to learn more and enroll!       On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:51 PM <matthew.will...@ferguson.com> wrote: I love all you guys. I really do. (Even you Todd)   But, Hire an Engineer, or Should be provided by an Engineer, just does not work out here in the trenches.   The answer is there in 13. Even "extruding" by a 3-D printer is extruding. I had to do Metal Working for folks cutting 4x8 sheets of aluminum. There is not a distinction. Some AHJ's see that and live by it.    IS it the intent? Probably not.   But it IS what the book says.   Which is the only thing we have in most cases.   I really wish we could kick it back. But more times than not, they just go to the next person in line.   Just saying. Those are not really answers to the questions.   Rant over..   R/ Matt     Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: (602) 337-0721 C: (307) 236-8249 matthew.will...@ferguson.com   From: Craig Hanson <cra...@wc-3.com> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 12:48 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Metal manufacturing   Caution:  This email originated from outside of the organization.  DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. They need to provide for you the hazard analysis that should have been done by an FPE and in accordance with IFC 104.7.2 and NFPA 13: 4.2(2022). The AHJ should have requested that information also. These are tricky operations as dissimilar metals create a deflagration issue. the design may also be outside the scope of the NFPA 13 due to the process involved. Their insurance company should also be requiring a hazard analysis.        Craig D. Hanson, CFPS Fire Division Manager West Coast Code Consultants, Inc. (WC³) Meridian Satellite Office C: 253.225.9977 | E: cra...@wc-3.com | www.WC-3.com Teaming With Your Community to Make a Difference     On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 12:21 PM Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com> wrote: +1 for Tim Stone. Too often the contractor or their estimator are asked to figure out design criteria. That should fall upon the FPE.    Todd Williams  Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-608-4559 On Oct 24, 2024 at 1:04 PM, <Tstone52> wrote: It should be recommended that an “Architect” or “Engineer of Record” should provide you with a Code Review. Or hire a “Fire Protection Engineer” to assist you.   Regards, G. Tim Stone   G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler Design and Consulting Services      117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452                  CELL: (802) 373-0638                tston...@comcast.net   From: Bobby Welch <bobby.we...@koorsen.com> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 12:57 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Metal manufacturing   I have a building were they are making metal products by multiple processes including Metal Casting of steel, Metal Forging, Additive Manufacturing and hot rolling. Most of the building is open warehouse where they are producing metal products with 3D printers.  NFPA has metal workings listed as ordinary hazard but also has Die Casting and Metal extruding under Extra hazard group 1. Does anyone know where I would start to figure out what hazard is required for this building? Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY 8090 N Dixie Dr, Dayton, OH 45414 P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457 bobby.we...@koorsen.com | www.koorsen.com   24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050 | servic...@koorsen.com     _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org   And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh… Eze 11:19

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