Although not directly on-topic, You might have a look at this droll-yet-horrifying essay by Phil Greenspun. He argues that the reason there are so few women in science is that they are often able to see, long before their male peers, just how grim the prospects for a career in science are. It's not just that the likely income is much lower than for other with equivalent education. It is that one works for so many years for amost nothing before one actually gets started.
http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science (Caveat: I do not necessarily agree completely with every word of each thing I repost. I repost them because I think they are interesting to think about.) Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ ========================== On 11/4/11 10:48 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: > > You make it sound so grim; in reality, most of the science, tech and > engineering jobs pay better right out of college with a BA or BS > degree, than many other non-STEM jobs pay with years of additional > schooling. My (soon to ex-) daughter-in-law is making as money this > year as a first year grad in chemical engineering, as I am making 20+ > years in my job with a PhD. Granted she was in an extremely > challenging program and had to work her buns off for a BS degree, but > it is still many fewer years of education and no dissertation. AND she > finds her work interesting, fascinating and rewarding. > Annette > Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph. D. > Professor, Psychological Sciences > University of San Diego > 5998 Alcala Park > San Diego, CA 92110 > tay...@sandiego.edu <mailto:tay...@sandiego.edu> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* roig-rear...@comcast.net [roig-rear...@comcast.net] > *Sent:* Friday, November 04, 2011 3:25 PM > *To:* Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > *Subject:* Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? > > > > > I really have to wonder whether the issue lies in students' > realization that the financial and personal rewards of > choosing science as a career are just not worth the sacrifice. Think > about it: years of doctoral and post-doctoral grueling lab > work, little guarantee of a tenure-track faculty position in a > research-oriented institution after graduation, decreasing societal > respect for the profession. Is it any wonder that students are not > going into these disciplines? > > Miguel > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Michael Britt" <mich...@thepsychfiles.com> > *To: *"Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > <tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > *Sent: *Friday, November 4, 2011 3:24:05 PM > *Subject: *Re: [tips] Does College Kill Interest in Science? > > > Annette, > > Your post made me think about an episode I had been thinking about > putting together on this topic of attracting students to science vs. > the challenge of actually doing real science. When I taught Research > Methods and Statistics for psych majors, a colleague who had a very > different teaching style taught it along with me. He was quite, shall > we say demanding and I wanted the students to enjoy the topic. As a > result, I would guess that his students probably came out of the > course having learned more, but I think mine came out of the course > with a more positive attitude toward research and stats. In other > words, his students might have done better on Bloom's cognitive > domains, but mine would have come out higher on Bloom's affective > domains. Which approach is "better"? > > I agree that actual science is hard. There's no way to water down how > complex a repeated measures of anova is to carry out and analyze. I > would argue that when it's your study and your idea and your > hypothesis, then you'll put in the time to figure out how to calculate > those complicated stats, but you first have to have a positive > attitude and you have to value the scientific method. > > Michael > > > > Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. > mich...@thepsychfiles.com <mailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com> > http://www.ThePsychFiles.com <http://www.thepsychfiles.com/> > Twitter: mbritt > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Annette Taylor wrote: > > > > > > > > I get a sense from this article and my own experience that in an effort > to hook students, the middle and high schools water down their programs. Then > when faced with real science in college it's a big whoopsie with the > professor taking the brunt of the students' anger at the disillusionment. > Maybe the hooking needs to take place in elementary school, and real science > education in middle and high school. Oh well, my speculation won't make a > whit of difference. > > Annette > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone > > Mike Palij wrote: > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips > as:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com > <mailto:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com>. > > To unsubscribe click > > here:http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=13890 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=13890> > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is > broken) > > or send a blank email > toleave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > <mailto:leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > > > > > An article in the NY Times today reviews how the U.S. is losing > their science majors once they are IN college. The article is > available > here: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?google_editors_picks=true > > Some key points: > > (1) The focus here is on students with strong STEM backgrounds. > > (2) Science majors at big research institutions are more likely to > drop out of the science major relative to other less prestigious > institutions.. > > (3) As some of the comments to the article point out, people > with STEM majors and graduate study still have a hard time > getting jobs, especially ones that pay well. > > (4) For purposes of this article, psychology is NOT a science > (indeed, there is a case presented of a student with a strong > background in math, was an engineering major at Notre Dame > and switched to a double-major in English and psychology -- > he plans on becoming a clinical psychologist). > > By the way, I believe the APA and other organizations were trying > to get psychology recognized as a STEM discipline. Anyone know > how that is going? > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.eud <mailto:m...@nyu.eud> > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as:tay...@sandiego.edu > <mailto:tay...@sandiego.edu>. > To unsubscribe click > > here:http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0&n=T&l=tips&o=13889 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0&n=T&l=tips&o=13889> > or send a blank email > toleave-13889-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > <mailto:leave-13889-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips > as:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com > <mailto:michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com>. > > To unsubscribe click > > here:http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=13890 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=13890> > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is > broken) > > or send a blank email > toleave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > <mailto:leave-13890-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: roig-rear...@comcast.net > <mailto:roig-rear...@comcast.net>. > > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13482.917fac06d4daae681dabfe964ca8c74e&n=T&l=tips&o=13891 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13482.917fac06d4daae681dabfe964ca8c74e&n=T&l=tips&o=13891> > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) > > or send a blank email to > leave-13891-13482.917fac06d4daae681dabfe964ca8c...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > <mailto:leave-13891-13482.917fac06d4daae681dabfe964ca8c...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: tay...@sandiego.edu > <mailto:tay...@sandiego.edu>. > > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0&n=T&l=tips&o=13894 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a21b0&n=T&l=tips&o=13894> > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) > > or send a blank email to > leave-13894-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > <mailto:leave-13894-13534.4204dc3a11678c6b1d0be57cfe0a2...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca > <mailto:chri...@yorku.ca>. > > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=13900 > > <http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=13900> > > (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) > > or send a blank email to > leave-13900-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > <mailto:leave-13900-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > > > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. 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