From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: >From what I see around me I think that teaching is necessary but not to the exclusion of the other.
David: Very true, but I hope you also realize that "the other" is limited by the hearts of the hearers. Take Gary's position toward me, for example. He views me as a false prophet and as a pretender. As long as his heart is set toward rejecting me, I could never bring any kind of ministry of deliverance or healing around him. Do you understand this principle? jt: Yes I hear what you are saying.... but we should see the Spirit of Christ in action. The scriptures I read about the end time activity of Elijah was that of restoring the hearts of the fathers to the children. They (homosexuals) are already under a curse, we don't need to condemn them any further. David: But the hearts of the children have turned away from the hearts of the fathers in that they view homosexuality as normal as being black or Asian. To turn the hearts back to the correct viewpoint requires declaring the truth in opposition to their new philosophy. I might add that I do not view the Elijah Spirit to be in opposition to Christ. It is simply a side of Christ that comes into view more predominately as men turn to sin. The side of Christ ruling with a rod of iron is the Elijah spirit, but the side of Christ riding lowly upon a donkey is his side when he is accepted and praised as he ought to be. jt: What about the side that lays down their life in love. That's the side I believe reaches the sin-sick, lonely, rejected. I've been reading Hubert Lindsey's book and this is how he ministered. He lived among the people, washed the feet of one of his hecklers when challenged and was available by telephone in time of emergency. The students grew to respect him because they knew he was genuine. I wrote: I don't know about a cloak - their sin is public and flagrant. David: But their sin is represented as being no sin at all. In fact, not only is it no longer a crime to commit homosexual abominations, but laws are being passed that give the practice of homosexuality special rights and protection. This is what I mean by taking away their cloak for sin. Their cloak does not hide the fact that the sin exists, but it sugar coats it so that the unsuspecting public is deceived into thinking that homosexuality is normal, that people are born that way just as a person might be born with certain color eyes or hair. When we stand up to that homosexual agenda and declare how harmful homosexuality is to society, we take away this cloak of respectability and reveal homosexuality for what it is from the eyes of a Holy God. jt: It's much better to hold up the light. That's what Hubert did. He held up God's standard, speaking of normal marriage and God's love between male and female to people on a campus where immorality was fast taking hold. There is a difference between condemnation and conviction. One is from the enemy and the other is from the Lord. David: I was taught this in the churches as well, but I think the Bible gives more than enough teaching to question this assumption. While there is an element of truth to the idea that the finger of conviction leads to repentance and good work while the hand of condemnation might lead to sorrowful depression and death, we should not shy away from ministry of the law simply because people become condemned. 2 Corinthians 3:9 describes the ministry of the law as being a ministry of condemnation, not the ministry of conviction. Romans 4:15 says that the law works wrath. In the seventh chapter of Romans, Paul gets in the particulars of how the law works out its condemnation, and in the course of that, he clearly points out that the condemnation that comes from the law leads us to understand that the law is holy and good. jt: David, all I know is that when I was out there - far away from God - I used to travel to work on a train that went by a billboard with John 3:16 on it and that billboard touched my heart more than any nut out there with a megaphone telling me that I was under condemnation and headed for hell. David: It is the sin within man that is bad and has to go. Not the law. Therefore, when we see the ministry of condemnation that comes through ministering the law, we should not declare that such condemnation is evidence of this ministry being contrary to Christ. Rather, we should agree with the declarations of the law and show our support, allowing the resulting condemnation to lead people to repentance and to faith in Jesus Christ. jt: I agree it is the sin within man that has to go, but this doesn't happen immediately even when one does receive Christ. We Christians who are in the process of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling are the last ones who should stand in the seat of the scornful toward the ignorant. David: "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:9-13 KJV) jt: Paul wrote this after he had been saved for 20yrs, so you see we are in the same condition as the pharisees who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery when we go out there and try to hit the sinner over the head with God's law. What did Jesus say: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone at her" I wrote: Since these people are strangers to the covenants of grace and many have not known love at all in their lives, I just believe Jesus' approach to be best and I like what Isaiah prophesied about Him: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth. I have put my spirit upon him, he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench; he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgment in the earth, and the isles shall wait for his law" (Isaiah 42:2,3,4) David: What I am concerned that you do not grasp is that idea that Jesus could have done none of this kind of ministry except that there was first the ministry of the law and prophets. Without that foundation, the good news sounds like empty words. Faith does not well up in the hearts of the hearers when they do not see the need for holiness. They think, "yeah, God loves me and receives me just as I am," but they go on and continue to sin like the devil. I have had college students literally brag that they masturbate every day and get drunk and fornicate most weekends, and that Jesus has made them able to live this way because Jesus loves everybody and accepts them just as they are. They proclaim that because of the death of Christ, nobody will be judged, that virtually everyone who believes that Jesus has risen from the dead and is the Son of God will be saved. Of course to them, believe means an intellectual assent of the facts, not a trust in the person of Christ so that they start living like Him. In fact, they deny that it is possible for anyone to live like Christ. jt: Sounds like the fruit of apostasy in the professing Church. Actually I was raised to think that way myself in the Methodist Church and my mother is still not free from it. Jesus becomes a historical figure but ATST my heart always condemned me without any help from a street preacher. I went to a Billy Graham rally and desperately wanted what he was offering. God saw my hunger and eventually I did meet someone who could communicate his love. But total deliverance is a long time coming sometimes. David: When we live in such a society that has overemphasized grace to the point that the wicked call themselves righteous and continue to promote wickedness in the name of the gospel, then it behooves men of God to set the record straight. jt: Then I suggest we start with the Church. After all the scriptures themselves say that "Judgment will begin at the house of God" When we who profess godliness are free from the same sin that is out there on the street is when God's power will be manifest as in the days of Annanias and Sapphira. David: Think of it like a farmer plowing ground. Every farmer loves the harvest season when the crops come in. He might even enjoy the watering and watching the plants grow. What he usually does not like is the preparation of the ground needed when the soil is bad. He must plow the ground, turn it over and over, and perhaps fertilize and prepare it to receive the seed. Should those hired to harvest complain that the plower is going about working in the fields all wrong? If he does, and he is effective in stopping the plowers from doing their job, he might find that there will not be much of a harvest when it is time for him to do his job. jt: I don't understand what you are getting at here. I know the parable of the sower is the key to the scriptures but the seed that is sown is important - only one kind of seed produces wheat the other kind makes tares and Satan has been wearing a clerical collar for a lot of years now. I wrote: I think offering people who are already condemned the yoke of Jesus is the more excellent way. David: I think you are out of touch with the pulse of our society in the same way that most professional clergymen are. Sometimes I am accused by a well meaning Christian that I should be telling people that God loves them instead of preaching against sin. I sometimes pause and say, "let's see if you are right. Students, please raise your hand if you believe that God loves you." Virtually all the hands go up. Then I ask, "raise your hand if you believe that everyone will be resurrected one day to stand before God and be judged for their works, most of them being sent to hell fire and eternal damnation, and some who are righteous being received into everlasting life." Almost no hands go up (sometimes no hands go up). Then I reply, "Oh, I think I'm preaching the right message alright. They already know God loves them. The real question is, do they love God." jt: People in ignorance believe what they want to believe; I've read the Barna and other polls. I know the majority claim to believe in a god and that they will go to heaven, just about everyone prays and they all believe in angels; but ATST most are ignorant of what the scriptures have to say. So??? What is new under the sun. We live in a pagan society. David: Our message must be meaningful to those we preach to. I remember lamenting before God that I wanted to preach the love and grace that he offered. I complained to him in my prayer time that I was tired of plowing and that I wanted to see the good news aspect of his gospel message emphasized. One evening on my way to a downtown nightclub area to preach all night, I sensed the Lord speak to my heart and say, "tonight I will let you preach the good news of grace that you have been asking about." Well, I kept that in my heart as I began my ministry that night. I didn't know what would happen, but I hoped that I would see an unusually large harvest. At one point I had a fairly good crowd of people gathered around. In my heart, I felt like the Lord said, "ok, go ahead." I felt a release to declare the gospel, so I did. The crowd had taken about 30 minutes to gather, but within about one minute of preaching the "God loves you and is ready to set you free" message, the entire crowd had dissipated. One by one, their eyes glazed over with the message they knew very well, and they just went away. When there was absolutely no person standing before me to listen, the Spirit of the Lord then spoke to my heart, "I know what message they need to hear. Just trust me to give you that message." So the truth is that our culture as a whole needs a message from God that most churches are not bringing to them. I think part of the problem is that the message God desires to bring stirs up persecution. People don't want to be arrested or criticized or even to be in the spotlight. I don't want any of that either, but if it pleases God and is how I enter the Kingdom of God, then I will set my course toward it and not be turned away from it. Judy wrote: TPW has seen too much flesh ministry already out on the streets - The Holy Spirit does not follow men's assumptions with signs following. He works with God's Words. David: The Pagan Wolf is drawing you into his circle. This is the standard tactic of the enemy. He first gets you to side with him against those who proclaim Christ on the streets. He causes you to believe that public preaching is for the most part a flesh ministry. He causes you to believe that he is a victim of circumstance, that he was born into a pagan family, so that is what he is. You think that if only he saw the peace and love in Christ he would come over, but the truth is that his sin is what separates him from God. jt: Hey David I'm not siding with TPW against anyone - why do you have such a "us vs them" mentality. I am just communicating with him like one human being to another, that is, respecting him where he is at. David: The church is not some club that everyone is invited to join. The church is made up of holy ones, and only those who are willing to lose their lives are able to join. Most people won't make the cut, and Pagan Wolf is one of them, UNLESS, he repudiates his sinful and occult practices and repents of his sin. He can't do that until he first acknowledges them to be evil. Right now, he sees his vile ways as good. jt: Right now TPW apparently sees the part of the Church he's been exposed to in worse shape than him and I don't know that TT is changing his mind any. David Miller wrote: You will never be able to woo Pagan Wolf into being a Christian unless he first becomes convinced that he now stands lost and condemned before God. jt: Apparently TPW has not seen a power greater than what he attributes to his Norse mythological gods coming from the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ and so our God is irrelevant right now so far as he is concerned. At least this is how it appears to me. Grace and Peace, Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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