David: "difference semantic (only implied?)..at time more than that (semantic implied) What is your understanding of semantic? What is your understanding of syntax? How can a difference be more than semantic? I'm not being a "sa" David. I may be incorrectly understanding these two fundamental terms as they relate to all differences in all matters. Blessings, Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: May 11, 2004 10:08 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
> Hi Bill. > > I'm not sure there is much to disagree with your response, but yet it > does seem to me that our grasp of this issue is not identical. Perhaps > that will become more clear as our discussion progresses. > > When I read Torrance, I come away with a different perspective than you > do, but that is surely because I bring with me baggage from a different > background so that I perceive his terms and illustrations in a different > manner. At times it seems that our difference is a semantic one, but > then other times it seems like it is much more than that. For the time > being, I want to focus on semantics a little and get a better grasp of > the terms and understanding of terms that you use. > > Bill Taylor wrote: > > Another thing to keep in mind when reading Torrance > > is this: we are ontologically in Christ from birth > > via the go'el aspect of the atonement; but the gift > > of the Holy Spirit is received at the point of trusting > > in Jesus Christ. Sometimes this is referred to as > > repentance, sometimes as belief, sometimes as faith, > > sometimes as conversion. > > So in the theology of Torrance, repentance, belief, faith, and > conversion are all the same thing, or is there some distinction made > between these terms? > > Your characterization of the Anabaptist position toward Baptism did not > seem accurate to me. I think they were attempting to restore much of > the reality of what Torrance teaches, turning away from dead rituals > that have only an external form, but rather than distract from Torrance > and discuss that, I'm going to ignore that for now. > > I will say that I agree with Torrance's view of the sacraments, and have > for a very long time. The difficulties arise in how he seems to want to > marry certain tenets of Reformed theology with his correct view of the > Atonement and Incarnation. This gets especially problematic when we > consider how we should preach the gospel to sinners. Eventually, we > will be discussing these things, but for now, let's get back to > semantics and agree upon terms and definitions. > > Bill Taylor wrote: > > The Gospel, then, calls for conversion, a fundamental > > change of mind, a radical departure from our former > > way of life. In other words, to believe the Gospel > > is to convert. BUT "conversion" is not what saves us. > > To convert is simply to align ourselves with the truth > > and reality of him who does save us: Jesus Christ. > > I can agree with what you say here, as I preach the gospel in this > fashion, declaring the good news, and persuading men to repent of their > sin and obey the gospel. Something still seems odd here, perhaps in > your phrase, "conversion is not what saves us." I don't think I have > ever taught that conversion saves us, or even thought of it that way. > Yet, you seem compelled to raise this point and I'm not sure why. > > I still have problems with the idea that everyone is born into Christ at > physical birth. Torrance himself says on page 67, "That 'great > mystery', as St. Paul described it, of the union between Christ and his > Church is primarily and essentially corporate in nature, but it applies > to all individual members of his Body WHO ARE INGRAFTED INTO CHRIST BY > BAPTISM and continue to live in union with him as they feed upon his > body and blood in Holy Communion." > > Here he says that they are ingrafted into Christ by baptism. How do we > reconcile that with the idea of being born into Christ at physical birth > BEFORE baptism? > > Maybe part of my problem is understanding how someone can be IN Christ > and yet not be in relationship with Christ. For me, that would be like > Jesus saying that he and the Father are one, yet they are not in > relationship with one another. Impossible. To be IN CHRIST surely > means to be in relationship with Christ, does it not? > > You seem to be saying that everyone is already in Christ but don't > realize it, and so when they realize it, then they are putting faith in > Christ and they experience the reality of what has always been. This > sounds like you are saying that the relationship was always there but > not recognized and experienced? ?? Maybe you can help me understand you > better, because I clearly do not seem to be understanding you. > > Again, my perspective regarding the Incarnation and the Atonement is > very much the same, as a work already done and accomplished, but I see > faith as the umbilical cord that ties us to that work and causes us to > experience it. In other words, from my perspective, physical birth has > absolutely nothing to do with being in Christ, but faith in Christ does. > Once we connect with Christ through faith, then we experience the > Incarnation and Atonement of which Torrance speaks as we are IN CHRIST > and Christ is IN US. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
