DAVEH: If you really don't want to continue, John...so be it. But I
would still like to know why you do not consider yourself a
Protestant. Which of the reasons mentioned in your definition.........
a
member of any of several church denominations denying the universal
authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of
justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the
primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth.
......do you not accept, which would disqualify you from being a
Protestant? I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that you........
1) deny the authority of the Pope
2) belief in justification by faith alone
3) believe in a priesthood of all believers
4) accept the Bible as the only source of revealed truth
5) and my simplistic definition: accept the Trinity Doctrine
........So John, I don't want to pigeon hole you in a category you
don't feel is proper. Which of the above criteria do you reject?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We
have an earlier post (this evening) that is a much better start than
this one. You want me to be a Portestant, no argument. Call me
anything you want -- just don't don't call me late to dinner. Let's
trash this post -- shall we?
Jd
In a message dated 4/4/2005 10:38:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My only frustration with Dave's response is that it includes an
insistence that (1) "protestants" are those who are not Mormon
DAVEH: Nonsense, John. Well, I stand corrected. I guess my may
concern, here, is that Mormons see Catholics and Protestant and the
"true church," the Mormons. I've never thought that way at
all. My primary interest is in Protestantism, as I view Catholicism as
having a reasonable claim to the priesthood, yet Protestantism has
sprung from that framework by rejecting their authority. You make
this statement and include all who are not Catholic.
DAVEH:
??? How do you figure, John? I don't view Jehovah Witnesses (and
perhaps others as well) as Protestant. So....I disagree with your
conclusion. Simply not being RCC does not qualify one to be a
Protestant, as I see it. But, if one accepts the Trinity Doctrine,
then it seems to me that their roots are based in Catholicism, or a
rejection of such yet retaining some of the doctrinal conclusions.
Close
but no cigar. Here is a specific definition that catches it for me
--
a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal
authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of
justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the
primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth.
DAVEH:
Thanx for your definition, John. I'm not suggesting your definition is
wrong, but I am curious if it applies to all Protestant churches. For
instance, does the Church of England claim justification by faith alone, the priesthood of
all believers? And.....I assume you consider it a Protestant church?
To
me that is a curious perspective that is fascinating and the reason I
am trying to learn how Protestants believe and think.
More
than I have complained about your use of the word "protestant."
DAVEH:
Which I find very interesting! What is it about being called a
Protestant that would offend anybody who believes in either your above
definition (justification by faith alone, the priesthood of
all believers) or mine (believing the T-Doctrine)?
Furthermore....Are there any of those TTers who have protested my
use of such (Protestant) who do NOT believe in justification by faith alone, the priesthood of
all believers or the T-Doctrine? If there are any, then I would certainly
appreciate hearing their definition of Protestant framed in a way that
it excludes them.
How about you John? Are you a Protestant? And....who on TT is not
a Protestant? Will those who do not believe in justification
by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers and
accept the T-Doctrine please let me know who you are so I don't step on
your toes. Otherwise, is there any reason I cannot consider most TTers
(other than Blaine and myself, since we don't fit the above
definitions) to be Protestants???
If you are trying to understand, why not include in the fascinating
search an understanding of those who are not attached to the
Reformation?
DAVEH:
It doesn't interest me. I've know tons of people not connected to the
Reformation. I'm tired of talking to them. It is far more interesting
to talk to somebody with more diverse views.
Who
teach grace as it stands against those who preach legalism (whether of
the Mormon variety or of the Miller brand0, who reject the notion that
membership in the "right church" counts for anything at all, in an
eternal sense.
DAVEH:
Maybe I'm missing something, John. What denominations do you have in
mind that meet that criteria?
You have the KJV of the bible. It teaches these things -- your
problem, of course, is that your KJV does not have a supportive text (a
Greek text). Do I mis-stpeak? Your views of the biblical message are
fashioned and shaped by the dictates of the True Church -----
something I find to be somewhat nonsensical. Care to discuss/defend
agains that claim?
DAVEH:
It may be nonsensical to you, but to me it seems pretty
logical.....which makes pretty good sense from my perspective. I'm not
in TT to argue the merits of LDS theology though. I have always
admitted my biases, and make no apology for by religious beliefs. And,
I respect your right to disagree with my beliefs.....and allow you the
right to believe as you wish. As I've said before, my interests in
being here are to find out what you (assuming you are a Protestant)
believe...and why. If you want to know what I believe and
why......just ask. If you want to argue that the LDS Church is not the
True Church....you've got the wrong guy. Though that is my belief, I'm
not here to prove to you that it is the True Church.
It would seem to me that, sense the biblical message was here long
before the Mormon message -- the bibilical account would be the
place to begin and defend. Shall we?
DAVEH:
??? I'm not sure I'm following you on that, John. But, I'm ready to
hear your defense of the T-Doctrine from a Biblical standpoint.
and
(2) that all "protestants" think alike.
DAVEH: I realize that all "protestants" don't necessarily
think alike. However, I am interested in knowing how many do think
alike. What is of interest in that !!??
It
seems to me that if we are going to borrow a word from the non-Mormon
world, we should include the attached definition instead of making up
our own --- it is confusing to those of us who are not "protestant"
by historic definition.
DAVEH: So, how do you define Protestantism, John? From my
perspective, it is those who accept the Trinity Doctrine, yet reject
Catholicism. While that may be a bit simplistic, it seems to work for
me. Do you view my definition as flawed? Dave, this is YOUR
definition.
It is not a historical definition.
DAVEH:
Agreed. But for me it seems to work rather nicely. Other than
Protestants (excluding Catholicism), do you know of any denominations
that have adopted the T-Doctrine?
Shall we use yours or that which grows out of the history of the
circumstance.
DAVEH:
I tend to like mine as while it may not tell the whole story, it is
simple and works for me. Depending on how you answer my above
questions, I may want to explore your definitions further.
If so....how?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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