Semantics, I chose the wrong project name but the point is still there. That the Apache Nation doesn't mind is not important in today's culture, I know black people who do not feel offended by the term blacklist.
I do not believe the term blacklist had any racial origins, until white people assigned race to it. If it was not racist before, and you make it racist now just so you can change it, isn't that a bit elitist? Even racist? I do not see the problem you are trying to solve. I do not know w hat black schools have no IT training programs because the terms being used offend the student body. I do not understand how the use of these terms is harming the industry and how changing these terms will open doors to people of color that have been closed until now. I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because it is more descriptive. Changing them because they are racially charged is silly. BLM is not going to give you a big hurrah on twitter for your efforts. I can't stop it from happening, so be it. DAve ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 9:15 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgr...@apache.org> wrote: > Dave, > The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by > being > less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking. > Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin > Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument fallacy. > My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders, > reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with > all > being good. The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on > referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with > the Apache name. We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great > work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves. > Regards, > KAM > -- > Kevin A. McGrail > Member, Apache Software Foundation > Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project > [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail > ] > - 703.798.0171 > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich < [ > mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org | dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote: >> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and >> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand. >> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must >> change >> the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are not >> important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are >> not a >> native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong. >> DAve >> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [ >> mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org | kmcgr...@apache.org ] > wrote: >>> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was >>> an >>> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged >>> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would >>> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it >>> up: [ >>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ >>> | >>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ >>> ] >>> Regards, >>> KAM >>> -- >>> Kevin A. McGrail >>> Member, Apache Software Foundation >>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project >>> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ] >>> - 703.798.0171 >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [ >>> mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org | dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote: >>>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me? >>>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to >>>> solution >>>> for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I >>>> even >>>> understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go >>>> along >>>> or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more >>>> clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and >>>> pandering. >>>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed. >>>> DAve >>>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [ >>>> mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org | kmcgr...@apache.org ] > wrote: >>>>> Marc and others about voting, >>>>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by >>>>> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management >>>>> committee aka >>>>> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April >>>>> with a >>>>> vote in early May by the PMC. >>>>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore >>>>> messages that >>>>> use them. >>>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly >>>>> archived >>>>> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that >>>>> when >>>>> you post. >>>>> Regards, KAM >>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu >>>>> | >>>>> m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote: >>>>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is >>>>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache >>>>>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement >>>>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is >>>>>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits >>>>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it. >>>>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not >>>>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done? >>>>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor >>>>>> democratic.
