Hi Joseph, thanks for an excellent post! My apologies if I misunderstood you.
Just so you know, I deal with User Experience / Human Factors professionally on a daily basis. I say this with the utmost respect to you. While you are presenting your perspective, it seems that rather than presenting any positive steps forward, you seem to simply be saying how other's ideas are failing. It sounds like you have a very good understanding of human factors and UX so what would be a step you might propose to help us along in our journey to having a reasonably balanced App Store experience? How would this look to you? I would very much enjoy reading your thoughts on this. Please. I would very much love it for you to feel comfortable contributing your own ideas to help move this discussion forward and share your own positive steps which we can consider. This is what this list is about after all. We all need to feel good about sharing our ideas here. Thank you so much! Smiles, Cara :) On Aug 4, 2013, at 12:54 AM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> wrote: I'm sorry but this is not accurate: "This gets back to another idea you mention below, Joseph. This idea is that if we cannot figure out every detail perfectly now, then there is no reason to go ahead with any ideas at all." This is clearly not at all what I stated nor meant. I never presented this either or situation. I also never said anything about the need for perfection, nor did I say anything about various levels of accessibility being impossible. My point was to convey that these matters are not as easy as many have so far asserted. If anyone here has ever developed any sort of cognitive assessment tool like a standardized test he or she will know exactly what I mean. There is a huge variability in the human experience and though one can derive averages, it is difficult to find common ground in these matters. Hence, different models of automobiles, apps that do the same thing, favorite X and Y, etc. Again, one can gather a bunch of voluounteers, but once the "dream" becomes work, you will lose a large percentage of your volunteers and will be forced to pay someone or leave the idea as just that. With that said, let's see how many people volunteer from this point on to demand accessibility from Apple. Please understand that I'm not trying to incite anything, I'm only presenting a perspective many have not considered, but one that is always present and difficult to overcome. I belong to the same population of individuals as the rest of you, I'm only conveying that there's lots that has not been considered. Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara Quinn" <modelc...@gmail.com> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 12:27 AM Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund Hi Joseph and list. Actually there is already a function to assess accessibility of an app. This is built into Apple's development environment, XCode. The function is called Accessibility Inspector. So Apple does have the ability to get a simple and impartial report on the status of the accessibility of all apps which come through their reviewers on-route to the App Store. As for training for in-house staff, since the access technology has been a part of iOS for some time now and is honestly not difficult to learn, all that would be needed would be a single live class at the very most. The fact is is that the features of Universal Access are already documented so it is even possible for Apple to simply ask it's app reviewers to read the manual so to speak. It is also a safe assumption to make that app reviewers need to acquaint themselves with new material every time a significant update is made to the iOS SDK so that they can review apps properly. So this idea that training is a big and costly issue is untrue. Training is par for the course. Lastly, as I already have sent a note to Apple Accessibility as of last night, one of my proposals to them would be to simply review if an app's main advertised features are accessible / usable with VO. So it is possible that not every feature of every app is evaluated but for now, I believe this is a very reasonable beginning to pursue. This gets back to another idea you mention below, Joseph. This idea is that if we cannot figure out every detail perfectly now, then there is no reason to go ahead with any ideas at all. Respectfully, this is like saying 'Since one has no idea how the rest of their life will play out that one should not start living it.' :) This is a process and one which we can have a hand in refining as we go. This is what Apple has been doing since the Mac and iOS have become accessible. Things are refined and changed as they go. I believe this is how we should begin now. let's propose something simple that gets the ball rolling. From there we can work together for it to grow and change. Just as a note, I also did suggest to Apple that they consider this as an opportunity for this community to be involved in the process. After all, who better to work with accessibility than those who are already proficient at it? This would be an excellent opportunity for jobs for this community. I want to thank you all for keeping this discussion going!… Thanks All, have a great night / rest of your weekend! Smiles, Cara :) On Aug 3, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> wrote: I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as there is just too much subjective criteria at play. 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app is accessible? 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? 90? 100%? 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is accessible, then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, while the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it go. :) 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, effort, and tons of costs. 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and senate members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get anywhere near this issue unless forced to do so. 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their Windows store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible even though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it in the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts or rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this will have to be quite a large group. Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one accurately describes a screen reader. Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it might as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make hasty demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single individual at Apple. Just some spur of the moment thoughts. Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aman Singer" <aman.sin...@gmail.com> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund Hi, alan. You say > what happens when a sighted person gets an app and they think it doesn't > meet their needs. With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was inaccurate, then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for the blind user is that the description may or may not be true. The app may say it can do X, and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user of VO. For the VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that VO will not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled to an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually do what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the product to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the user is entitled to a refund if the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen not to allow the first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though not fully satisfactory, for them to allow the third. Aman dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" <alanandsuza...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hi All, > > My concern here is this. So what happens when a sighted person gets an > app and they think it doesn't meet their needs. Do they get a refund? > I'd guess not. This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. > What I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your > money back policy in place then that's one thing but just because it > doesn't work well with voice over may not fly. > ------- > > Regards, > > Alan > > Go Chicago Bears in 2013! > > Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents? Act now!!!!! > Move out. Get a job. Pay your bills wile you still know everything. > > Please click on: > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/ > There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played > on > the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard. The albums in Technics format formerly on > my website are still available upon request. Thanks for listening! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sieghard Weitzel > To: viphone@googlegroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM > Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app > refund > > Hi Cara, > > I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this > they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the > hassle. I must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return > policy Google apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do > something like that is not just a completely different ball game, it’s a > different sport! > > If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could > request proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could > limit refunds to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given > their computers they could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id. > > If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as > an example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, > i.e. order number and all that, as well as the response I received. > It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand > the situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized > my request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of > course is not at all the case and not what I said. > Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really > didn’t get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate > exception” and they would refund me the money which still has not > happened: > > From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM > To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com' > Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps > > Hello, > > My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for > tracking packages in order to find out which one offered the best > features. I tried a couple more, but they had free Lite versions which > allowed me to try them before buying the full version. > > I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and > unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps > have accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I > wrote to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether > they might consider making improvements so the apps would work with > Voiceover. I used iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering > if it was possible to receive a refund since I have already deleted the > apps from my phone. > > -----Original Message----- > From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM > To: siegh...@hotmail.ca > Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929 > > Dear Sieghard, > > Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am > happy to assist you today. > > I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store > and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how > important it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance. > > Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined > that issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate > exception to the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all > sales are final. > > You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours. > You may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before > you see the credit in your account. > > The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure that > you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would like > to make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the > iTunes Store by following the instructions in this article: > > Resetting iTunes Store warnings > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734 > > Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will > prevent them from making purchases: > > iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch: Understanding Restrictions > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4213 > > I hope the information provided would resolve your issue. > > Sieghard, if you have any additional questions, please let me know and I > will be happy to assist you further. Thank you for being a valued member > of iTunes family. > > Have a nice day! > > Sincerely, > > Alishia > iTunes Store Customer Support > http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/ww/ > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" > Google Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" > Google Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. 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