Hello, Joseph. Let me also thank you for your civility. Now, very briefly, you write > I believe I made it clear I was referring to an Apple Accessibility policy > that is inclusive of "All" apps and not just those on AppleVis.
You were perfectly clear, the only reason I raised applevis at all was because I wished to object to your view that subjectivity is an obstacle to the understanding of accessibility. Otherwise, applevis has nothing to do with what I was saying except that it shows that subjectivity of what is and is not accessible need not be a significant problem. As to the last part of your message, I agree that accessibility testing will cost money. This is why all I pursue would be refunds for inaccessible products. Though this is not perfect, it is fairly satisfactory and all that can be done through legal compultion, in my view. If anyone can get more from Aplle, I would be overjoyed, but I do not expect it. Aman > On 2013-08-04, at 1:06 AM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Aman, > > Thank you for your polite response--always enjoy this type of interaction. > > I believe I made it clear I was referring to an Apple Accessibility policy > that is inclusive of "All" apps and not just those on AppleVis. (Smile). > > The Appleviz website relies on the relatively few who have and enjoy taking > the time to add comments. Let's say at most they have reviewed 500 apps > within recent years, well, as you know, there are 500,000+ in the apps > store. > > Again, all of your and other's suggestions sound like 100% common sense > proposals, but the wheels fall off when you actually implement something > like this in reality or on a global app store basis. This cost money, money, > money, and unless pushed into it, there aren't too many private sector > businesses that will make such accommodations without something in return as > is the case with Apple and their relationships with governmental public > sector businesses. > > I never used the word impossible to describe the current situation, it was > introduced into the conversation by another list member Christian something > or other. > > Thanks, > > Joseph > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aman Singer" <aman.sin...@gmail.com> > To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:43 PM > Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund > > > Hello, Joseph. > I must respectfully disagree with you. To describe an application's > accessibility to VO users is so far from impossible that it is being done > every day on Applevis. You are certainly correct that there are some > subjective aspects to the evaluation, but if you look at the descriptions of > apps on Applevis, there is not really a significant problem in determining > what functions do and don't work in an application. The problem with > Applevis is not that the information is bad but that there isn't enough of > it, too few apps are getting the treatment. If Apple wished to do this sort > of thing, there would be no difficulty in contracting it out to a particular > group of people, perhaps some of the people here. Remember that what is > asked for is a description, rather than an accessibility rating or, if such > a rating is needed, it should be secondary to the description. Also > remember that, in this case as with many others, perfection shouldn't be > demanded and probably can't be attained in any case. The lack of perfection > is not something that should stop this sort of thing though, knowing Apple > and its policies, it well may. Aside from all that, though, as I said > before, a policy of refunds is probably the easiest way to go and is almost > certainly the cheapest. It is not optimal, but it is workable and the > infrastructure already exists for it. > Aman > > > On 2013-08-03, at 10:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple >> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as >> there >> is just too much subjective criteria at play. >> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app >> is >> accessible? >> >> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? >> 90? 100%? >> >> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is >> accessible, >> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the >> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to >> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being >> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take >> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, >> while >> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in >> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it >> go. :) >> >> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to >> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to >> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what >> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, >> effort, and tons of costs. >> >> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to >> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve >> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and >> senate >> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable >> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get >> anywhere >> near this issue unless forced to do so. >> >> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their >> Windows >> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible >> even >> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, >> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, >> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it >> in >> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts >> or >> rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either >> all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this >> will >> have to be quite a large group. >> >> Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be >> difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making >> demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, >> why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia >> since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it >> to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and >> implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one >> accurately describes a screen reader. >> >> Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it >> might >> as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make >> hasty >> demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single >> individual at Apple. >> >> Just some spur of the moment thoughts. >> >> Joseph > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. 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