Oh! so I did. haha. Sorry about that. Yes. The pause before the reading of the hints does help.
Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Aug 4, 2013, at 4:37 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: > You get that pregnant pause before the hints are spoken. I'll be curious if > that helps alleviate your concerns over the VoiceOver verbosity or not. > > BTW, I think you replied to the wrong message. > > > On 08/04/2013 03:29 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >> Hi Cara, >> >> Yup. I saw that. It does help but, it still has what I think is an >> important drawback. Its impossible to no where hints will just give you >> basic instructions or explanations, and when you will come across some >> tangible information that just isn't spoken by Voiceover with hints off. >> >> This being the case, I have found myself just leaving hints on because, I >> don’t know what I could be missing. lol. Its still funny to me after using >> IOS for 4 years now, I never thought to turn hints on since the first day it >> was introduced to IOS. Now I’m going through a bunch of my apps seeing what >> information I could have been missing. :). >> >> Ricardo Walker >> rica...@appletothecore.info >> Twitter:@apple2thecore >> www.appletothecore.info >> >> On Aug 4, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Joseph and list. >>> >>> Actually there is already a function to assess accessibility of an app. >>> This is built into Apple's development environment, XCode. The function is >>> called Accessibility Inspector. So Apple does have the ability to get a >>> simple and impartial report on the status of the accessibility of all apps >>> which come through their reviewers on-route to the App Store. >>> >>> As for training for in-house staff, since the access technology has been a >>> part of iOS for some time now and is honestly not difficult to learn, all >>> that would be needed would be a single live class at the very most. The >>> fact is is that the features of Universal Access are already documented so >>> it is even possible for Apple to simply ask it's app reviewers to read the >>> manual so to speak. It is also a safe assumption to make that app reviewers >>> need to acquaint themselves with new material every time a significant >>> update is made to the iOS SDK so that they can review apps properly. So >>> this idea that training is a big and costly issue is untrue. Training is >>> par for the course. >>> >>> Lastly, as I already have sent a note to Apple Accessibility as of last >>> night, one of my proposals to them would be to simply review if an app's >>> main advertised features are accessible / usable with VO. So it is possible >>> that not every feature of every app is evaluated but for now, I believe >>> this is a very reasonable beginning to pursue. >>> >>> This gets back to another idea you mention below, Joseph. This idea is that >>> if we cannot figure out every detail perfectly now, then there is no reason >>> to go ahead with any ideas at all. >>> >>> Respectfully, this is like saying 'Since one has no idea how the rest of >>> their life will play out that one should not start living it.' :) This is a >>> process and one which we can have a hand in refining as we go. This is what >>> Apple has been doing since the Mac and iOS have become accessible. Things >>> are refined and changed as they go. I believe this is how we should begin >>> now. let's propose something simple that gets the ball rolling. From there >>> we can work together for it to grow and change. >>> >>> Just as a note, I also did suggest to Apple that they consider this as an >>> opportunity for this community to be involved in the process. After all, >>> who better to work with accessibility than those who are already proficient >>> at it? >>> >>> This would be an excellent opportunity for jobs for this community. >>> >>> I want to thank you all for keeping this discussion going!… >>> >>> Thanks All, have a great night / rest of your weekend! >>> >>> Smiles, >>> >>> Cara :) >>> On Aug 3, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple >>> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as there >>> is just too much subjective criteria at play. >>> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app is >>> accessible? >>> >>> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? >>> 90? 100%? >>> >>> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is accessible, >>> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the >>> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to >>> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being >>> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take >>> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, while >>> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in >>> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it >>> go. :) >>> >>> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to >>> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to >>> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what >>> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, >>> effort, and tons of costs. >>> >>> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to >>> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve >>> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and senate >>> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable >>> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get anywhere >>> near this issue unless forced to do so. >>> >>> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their Windows >>> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible even >>> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, >>> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, >>> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it in >>> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts or >>> rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either >>> all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this will >>> have to be quite a large group. >>> >>> Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be >>> difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making >>> demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, >>> why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia >>> since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it >>> to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and >>> implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one >>> accurately describes a screen reader. >>> >>> Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it might >>> as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make hasty >>> demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single >>> individual at Apple. >>> >>> Just some spur of the moment thoughts. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Aman Singer" <aman.sin...@gmail.com> >>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:45 PM >>> Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund >>> >>> >>> Hi, alan. >>> You say >>>> what happens when a sighted person gets an app and they think it doesn't >>>> meet their needs. >>> >>> With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the >>> sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and >>> the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of the >>> app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was >>> inaccurate, then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for >>> the blind user is that the description may or may not be true. The app may >>> say it can do X, and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a user >>> of VO. For the VO user, the description is simply false unless it says that >>> VO will not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled >>> to an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually do >>> what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the product >>> to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the user is entitled >>> to a refund if the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen >>> not to allow the first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though >>> not fully satisfactory, for them to allow the third. >>> Aman >>> dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" >>> <alanandsuza...@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> My concern here is this. So what happens when a sighted person gets an >>>> app and they think it doesn't meet their needs. Do they get a refund? >>>> I'd guess not. This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind card. >>>> What I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your >>>> money back policy in place then that's one thing but just because it >>>> doesn't work well with voice over may not fly. >>>> ------- >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> Go Chicago Bears in 2013! >>>> >>>> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents? Act now!!!!! >>>> Move out. Get a job. Pay your bills wile you still know everything. >>>> >>>> Please click on: >>>> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/ >>>> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played >>>> on >>>> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard. The albums in Technics format formerly on >>>> my website are still available upon request. Thanks for listening! >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Sieghard Weitzel >>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM >>>> Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app >>>> refund >>>> >>>> Hi Cara, >>>> >>>> I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this >>>> they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the >>>> hassle. I must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return >>>> policy Google apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do >>>> something like that is not just a completely different ball game, it’s a >>>> different sport! >>>> >>>> If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could >>>> request proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could >>>> limit refunds to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given >>>> their computers they could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id. >>>> >>>> If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as >>>> an example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, >>>> i.e. order number and all that, as well as the response I received. >>>> It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand >>>> the situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized >>>> my request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of >>>> course is not at all the case and not what I said. >>>> Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really >>>> didn’t get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate >>>> exception” and they would refund me the money which still has not >>>> happened: >>>> >>>> From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM >>>> To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com' >>>> Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for >>>> tracking packages in order to find out which one offered the best >>>> features. I tried a couple more, but they had free Lite versions which >>>> allowed me to try them before buying the full version. >>>> >>>> I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and >>>> unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps >>>> have accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. I >>>> wrote to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether >>>> they might consider making improvements so the apps would work with >>>> Voiceover. I used iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was wondering >>>> if it was possible to receive a refund since I have already deleted the >>>> apps from my phone. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM >>>> To: siegh...@hotmail.ca >>>> Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929 >>>> >>>> Dear Sieghard, >>>> >>>> Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am >>>> happy to assist you today. >>>> >>>> I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App Store >>>> and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how >>>> important it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance. >>>> >>>> Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined >>>> that issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate >>>> exception to the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all >>>> sales are final. >>>> >>>> You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours. >>>> You may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before >>>> you see the credit in your account. >>>> >>>> The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure that >>>> you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would like >>>> to make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the >>>> iTunes Store by following the instructions in this article: >>>> >>>> Resetting iTunes Store warnings >>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734 >>>> >>>> Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will >>>> prevent them from making purchases: >>>> >>>> iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch: Understanding Restrictions >>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4213 >>>> >>>> I hope the information provided would resolve your issue. >>>> >>>> Sieghard, if you have any additional questions, please let me know and I >>>> will be happy to assist you further. Thank you for being a valued member >>>> of iTunes family. >>>> >>>> Have a nice day! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Alishia >>>> iTunes Store Customer Support >>>> http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/ww/ >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>>> Google Group. >>>> >>>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>>> >>>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 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message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. 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