Peter, I sense you have it. That makes me happy :) I am just back from a walk in the mountains, and struggle to find the motivation to explain this any more. I'm satisfied that I've at least communicated my thoughts to Peter, and hope he'll carry the ball further. I will recommend for a third time to watch Downes video explaining the tension between groups and networks, and reflect on the controlling influences that groups have on us individually - especially Wikieducator. Sorry if you all have watched it - I just see little evidence of it.
Legs so sore I can barely keep the laptop on my lap! Face burnt, mouth dry, boots wet. I'll sleep well tonight! On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Derek Chirnside <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Well well. Saturday, 6.01am here, just off to the Coast with two bands, > one classic rock and one progressive rock to play 7 hours at the Empire > Hotel during the 6,000 people Ross Fireworks Festival, hay fever disenhanced > (severely today), and very very tired after the decision this week in the > Moodle trial here and the huge amount of work leading up to this. > > Then this post comes. The first words where I think I really can engage > wkith this fascinating discussion, possibly at the risk of missing the > point, but I do have some things to say. > I'm based at an unusual institution. They will give us the OK to start of > UCTL.canterbury.ac.nz as a little fun thing, to give away all the work > from one of my recent projects, yet quibble over pixel widths on learning > pages with branding, and force a 12 month process when 2 weeks would really > be enough to make a decision. etc. A place of contradictions where I am a > minion. Some things (only some things) are not the best, but I'm finding > (vaguely)a place there. > > I'm a dabbler in WE. In and out like a yo yo - committed to OER but like > some other software develiopers, mistaking a clear view of the goal with the > closeness of it. Some of your comments probably resonate about why I find > it hard at times in the WE OER environment. > > BUT: I can't post now more, got to pack trailors etc, and I'll be away from > any internet for 36 hours. > The crunch came three weeks ago. I was off to do a reccee for the Ross > trip to the Coast. At 27 hours notice I got a call to run 2 Podcasting > workshops on the coast. I was already going, so hey, I thought, lets do it. > Where to put it was my query? WE was obvious. Checked out the podcasting > stuff. Tried to decide what to do. Fiddle with it? Copy and adapt it? > Work with Podcasting to create Derek's Podcasting. I had no time to do it > this way. How to name my pages? How to cluster them? How much to > contextualise? Who owns the page 'podcasting workshop' and can I fiddle > with it? Should I start one as well? > > This is a trivial context I know, but they made me face a few of these > questions you are debating here. > > OK. Unfinished. > But I have broken the ice. I'll be back. > If the discussion has not moved on two much I'll post tomorrow afternoon. > I may post even if it has. :-) > > -Derek > > > 2008/10/31 Alex P. Real <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi Leigh, >> >> >> >> Beautiful response, I really appreciate it <smile>. The scenario >> product/maintainer/tradeoff is recurrent in many realms, not just software. >> I can only agree to your reading on collaborative editing, the main reason >> why I've refrained from contributing contents, to see how things work and >> avoid potential uneasiness among page creators. I find more productive >> adding to something going on than starting from scratch. And as the prime >> focus is the Commonwealth it seemed coherent to leave the initiative to >> intended beneficiaries, maybe a bias acquired in development projects. I >> know I can start my own page, node, but seemed out of place, so focused on >> Collage G-group until it fulfilled its role in COL's agenda. No criticism, >> right? >> >> >> >> Re TQF I got involved replying to an email by Anil re content development >> and read the full thread with keen interest, same as the Wikipedia entry. >> With such a diverse base of educators WE seems ideal to conduct some >> research re existing frameworks, limitations, alternatives, etc. to >> contribute to TQF or whatever and try minimize the dangers you rightly >> perceive, and take into account country/cultural specificities usually set >> aside; or as some sort of repository. But again, not for me to tell. I'll >> start my own stuff to pursue my interests, otherwise I'll end quitting. >> >> >> >> I can only guess what you mean by "grouped thinking" (my ignorance re WE >> subtleties), keep fighting for your beliefs. I may not agree with you 100% >> which is healthy and enriching, but it doesn't mean I don't >> follow/like/admire what you do. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> *De:* wikieducator@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *En nombre de *Leigh Blackall >> *Enviado el:* jueves, 30 de octubre de 2008 22:46 >> *Para:* wikieducator@googlegroups.com >> *Asunto:* [WikiEducator] Re: !!RE: [WikiEducator] Re: Another Milestone >> >> >> >> Alex said: >> >> Sorry if pushy here but have you >> considered your approach could be perceived as an imposition itself? >> Criticism is great, and I mean it, but what alternatives do you suggest? >> Ever thought TQF could ease many lives, e.g. qual recognition abroad, >> which >> can be a real nightmare? >> >> >> Yes, of course Alex, I have and do consider the question - often >> reflecting on the many years I have spent encouraging (to put it lightly) >> teachers to use socially networked media, and arguing for a specific type of >> change, namely individual capability and independence, and networked >> practice. The question I ask myself is how much my methods align with >> individuality, and undermine those of us who value collectiveness. An age >> old dilemma really - the individual and the state (and everything in >> between). >> >> As for the Transnational Qualification Framework. Anil, Peter and myself >> have had interesting discussions about TQF on this list. I must say again, I >> don't see TQF relating (yet) to the concerns I have about words to the >> effect of one curriculum (which is where this thread started from - relating >> to the Wikipedia article about Wikieducator). TQF (if done well) should be >> able to support many curricula including ones that have not formed yet, and >> include any subject area. There was a little bit of concern back in the >> early TQF thread when someone started stating that some forms of knowledge >> are "redundant" and should not be included in a TQF, and this is where it >> starts to go wrong. But over all, the idea of developing an assessment >> framework that aids the strengthening of new knowledge, the easier migration >> of people, and an exchange of ideas.. this is certainly something that is >> attractive. But over stating that, or developing something that has an >> impact of people's ideas about curricula, or the establishment of new forms >> of knowledge, or the squashing of old forms, this is something to watch out >> for every step of the way. >> >> I'm not sure I agree with John Stampe's organising principles based on his >> experience in software development. >> >> The thing is with software development or collaborative editing is that >> there are trade-offs. You want a product (software, text, learning tools, >> etc.) that is open to new ideas, new features, and new approaches. One the >> other hand you need somebody (a "maintainer" in open software circles) who >> will maintain direction and purpose to the project. >> >> >> In my experience there has in fact been very very little actual >> collaborative editing on Wikieducator - and this is a good thing in many >> ways. Yet we continue to refer to collaborative editing as one of the key >> organising principles for Wikieducator. Instead, we have a networked model. >> Again I would refer to the video of Stephen Downes articulating his >> thoughts about the tension between groups and >> networks<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4126240905912531540>, >> where I sit more comfortably in the zone of networked participant, and I >> think it is a more realistic organising principle for Wikieducator. The >> distribution and re-networking of information and communication is different >> (I think) to software development. To use the software development analogy >> that John has reintroduced: the information and communication development >> (that we might just call content for now) exists in 100s of thousands of >> "folks", and those "folks" are converged from time to time to form nodes (as >> Maria explains). Those nodes build up and/or disappear. Very rarely (never) >> do they converge to make one (although Maria desires it). It is kind of the >> opposite to software development, and so far it is opposite to Wikieducator. >> I myself have been following the collaborative editing promise and software >> development analogy (sharing in Maria's desire for one thing), but >> increasingly I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with it as I find >> myself centralising and struggling with grouped thinking and tradeoffs. >> >> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:12 AM, Chris Harvey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >> Your asking something different. Originally you were talking about naming. >> Disambiguation would probably be a good example of this. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disambiguation >> >> For a good example of multiple pages from different points of view about >> the same concept perhaps look at this page. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_education >> >> Or perhaps portals like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_portal >> >> Anyway, I should be in bed, I'll try to find more info tommorow if your >> not satisfied. >> >> Warm Regards >> Chris >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Maria Droujkova <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> >> Can you please point me in the direction of some good examples? I want to >> see multiple pages from different points of view about the same concept. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Chris Harvey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >> Names stand for ideas, so there will be the one and the only page about >> "constructivism" and "math" and "multiplication" in any wiki. >> >> >> >> This is wrong, in an encyclopedia or dictionary this may be true. >> >> Warm regards >> Chris Harvey >> chris.superuser.com.au >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cheers, >> MariaD >> >> I write, 'In the beginning was the Deed!' - Goethe, Faust >> >> naturalmath.com: a sketch of a social math site >> groups.google.com/group/naturalmath: a mailing list about math maker >> activities >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Leigh Blackall >> +64(0)21736539 >> skype - leigh_blackall >> SL - Leroy Goalpost >> http://learnonline.wordpress.com >> http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall >> >> >> >> > > > -- > From Derek Chirnside. > > > > > -- -- Leigh Blackall +64(0)21736539 skype - leigh_blackall SL - Leroy Goalpost http://learnonline.wordpress.com http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. 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