JMJM, Thanks for your continuing discussion.
When I use the term 'Just THIS!' I am trying to both DESCRIBE and DEMONSTRATE Buddha Nature with a written phrase. I think the description is pretty good, but I know it lacks a lot as a demostration. Part of that is the medium - written words. Spoken words would be better. Spoken words with intonation, volume accompanied with gestures would be better - probably the closest I could come. Since for me 'Just THIS!' represents Buddha Nature some of the questions you've asked are just not answerable. For example could you answer questions like: - Is Buddha Nature the same today as it was yesterday? And will it be the same tommorow? - Is my Buddha Nature the same as yours? So, to respond to (not answer) your latest question below: [JMJM] When you are in "Buddha Nature", are you connected with "Buddha Nature" in others, or disconnected? - I don't describe the state as being 'in Buddha Nature'. I describe this state as 'experiencing Buddha Nature', or 'pure awareness'. - I am not 'connected with Buddha Nature'. There is no 'I' nor is there 'Buddha Nature' - there is just 'pure awareness' which I try to describe as 'Just THIS!'. - Also, there is no 'others' there is only 'pure awareness'. I guess you could describe it as a 'connection', but a 'connection' implies 2 or more things being 'connected'. I'd describe it as an 'emersion' or 'absorption' - but each of these words imply a perspective. 'Emersion' is 'going into' and 'absorption' is 'drawing in'. Maybe a better word would be just plain old 'blend' - to combine multiple things (illusions) into one fully-integrated whole (Buddha Nature or Just THIS!). ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <chan.jmjm@...> wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Still trying to learn about "Just This". You are saying "Just this is > Buddha nature". If so... > > When you are in "Buddha Nature", are you connected with "Buddha Nature" > in others, or disconnected? > > Thanks, > JM > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > http://www.chan-meditation.com > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > http://www.chanliving.org > Learn to reach enlightenment > http://www.heartchan.org > To save the world > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > On 6/3/2011 6:37 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > My responses are embedded below; > > > > > > Interesting. If your Just This is static, or distinctive moments.... > > then > > > > [Bill!] Just THIS! is not 'distinctive moment' is is the One Eternal > > Moment'. > > > > > * When next moment appears, is that the same Just This or different? > > > > [Bill!] There is no 'next' moment. There is only - only Now. > > > > > * Or when this moment is dying and next moment is about to appear, > > > is there Just This, or not? > > > > [Bill!] Just THIS! is always now. There is no 'next moment'. > > > > > * How do we transition from one Just This to another Just This, I > > > mean in a static fashion? > > > > [Bill!] There is no 'next moment', only now - so there is no > > transistion. > > > > > * Does your Just This change? > > [Bill!] 'Just THIS'! is a term I use to describe Buddha Nature. > > So...It is not MY Just THIS! (Buddha Nature). It is Just THIS! (Buddha > > Nature). The SUBSTANCE does not change. The FORM may appear to change. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > Thanks, > > > JM > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > To save the world > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2011 3:31 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > Just THIS! is static. It never changes. It's always Just THIS! > > > > > > > > Just as this moment is the only moment that exists, and that has > > ever > > > > existed and that ever will exist. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > èæúÃ¥æââ¢Ã§Ã²Ã¾Ã¦ÃÅ"à ½ chan.jmjm@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike and Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Thank to the last two posts from Mike, I have an opportunity now > > to > > > > > share about the essence of Sitting Chan. > > > > > > > > > > * Another perspective that we share is that "our body" is an > > > > > illusion. Because our body is not "ours", our body is a > > > > > collection of sixty billion cells (not sure of the right number of > > > > > zeros). Each of these cells is a sentient being contributing to > > > > > our well being. Our wisdom is a collection of all their wisdom. > > > > > When we sit, we are sitting for them, ferry each cell to Buddha > > > > > land. Be grateful to each of them. We (the collective of all > > > > > cell) are well only if every cell is well. Therefore, sitting is > > > > > not to benefit ourselves, but benefit every sentient being inside > > > > > and outside of us. Therefore, Enlightenment is not just a mental > > > > > state. It need to be a total integration of our physical body as > > > > > well. Buddhist call this crossing the three EONs of body, mind > > > > > and spirit. > > > > > * Chi is just an ancient Chinese label for energy. It is not > > > > > important what it is called. Nor we need to understand or > > > > > comprehend it. Because chi, or our life force, is the same life > > > > > force that manifest everything else in the universe, the pebbles, > > > > > the flowers, the stars and the sun. It is through this chi, we > > > > > are connected. Without this chi, the universe is not alive. > > > > > * What Bill's simplistic term of "just this" is the essence of > > zen, > > > > > which is not wrong, but IMO it is incomplete. Just this is not > > > > > static. Like everything else, it is dynamic. It is alive. It is > > > > > true only in every moment. Like the stars, each relationship is a > > > > > steady state maintained by energy. Without these life force, > > > > > there is no relationship. IMO, without chi, just this is only a > > > > > transient mental state and can not be maintained. The only way we > > > > > can be in sync with the wisdom of every moment, is by keeping in > > > > > pace with the rhythm of the life force. This is just simple > > physics. > > > > > * Enlightenment is just a synchronization with the laws of the > > > > > universe in real time in a dynamic way. > > > > > > > > > > This is for your reference. Thank you for your time, > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > To save the world > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/2/2011 3:16 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > Hi JM, Bill! and ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a > > > > > > certain pain is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... NOW!" in > > order > > > > > > to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, > > > > > > cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is > > merely > > > > > > discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok > > for > > > > > > giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect > > of > > > > > > phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the > > test > > > > > > and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct > > and > > > > > > sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). > > Far > > > > > > from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like > > a > > > > > > laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and > > what is > > > > > > illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and > > then the > > > > > > whole house of cards comes crashing down with something simple > > like > > > > > > bad a toothache? I guess the key word is 'equanimity', but IMO, > > one > > > > > > can only realise > > > > > > it by going thru experience (trials and tribulations) and not > > thru > > > > > > merely reasoning about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a great deal about chi, but given its long time use > > in > > > > > > Oriental medicine, it must have some merit. What I've found > > recently, > > > > > > is that my sitting time has lengthened considerably due to the > > > > > > insights gained from observing what is happening to the > > body/mind > > > > > > during the meditation session. Along with these insights, there > > does > > > > > > seem to be both a mental and physical 'unblocking' of sorts, > > with a > > > > > > feeling of energy being able to flow more easily. What this > > 'energy' > > > > > > is, and what is being 'unblocked' - I have no idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > > > èæúÃ¥æââ¢Ã§Ã²Ã¾Ã¦ÃÅ"à ½ > > chan.jmjm@ > > > > > > *To:* [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > *Sent:* Friday, 3 June 2011, 2:49 > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill and Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > In our school, an effective sitting is the foundation to > > everything. > > > > > > That's sort of the only thing we are somewhat adamant about. If > > I may > > > > > > share with you some of the witnesses that I have from a few > > hundred > > > > > > cases in California. > > > > > > > > > > > > When we have pain, (not the bone fracture kind of pain, just the > > > > > > tendon, muscle kind), meanings our inner chi is trying to find > > new > > > > > > passages. When we focus and be one with it, the pain will > > diminish in > > > > > > time, because when we focus on it, instead of resisting it, we > > are > > > > > > applying our chi to it. Sort of acupuncture there with our mind > > > > > > instead of a needle. I call that "soft-acupuncture". :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > We have many people began their practice with us, initially with > > > > lower > > > > > > back pain, sciatica, pain from spinal surgery, etc. All healed > > after > > > > > > a few months of sitting. Chi is our innate life force that > > energize > > > > > > itself wherever it was blocked. > > > > > > > > > > > > Check this one out, please http://www.chanliving.org/pain.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Since a few years ago, Bill has regarded Chi based sitting as > > > > illusory > > > > > > by his mind. If you could open your heart and welcomes all > > advice > > > > > > regardless of your judgmental mind, your pain probably already > > > > > > subsided by now. > > > > > > > > > > > > I love you, Bill, you know. I hope you can open up your heart > > and > > > > > > stop walk a certain path. Each path, though is not perfect, has > > its > > > > > > own merit. > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > To save the world > > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/1/2011 11:00 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > >> Mike, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> You can tough it out if you want. I'll wave the white flag. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> IMO physical pain is your body telling you that something is > > > > wrong. I > > > > > >> try to listen to my body when it speaks. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> My approach to this is NOT what I was taught in my Japanese Zen > > > > > >> Buddhist training. They also thought you ought to tough it out. > > I > > > > did > > > > > >> that then, HOO-AH!, but I'm over that now. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > >> <mailto:uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Bill!, > > > > > >> > >I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back... > > Usually > > > > > >> pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture... > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, shoulders > > > > etc. is > > > > > >> merely another word for 'discomfort' induced by sitting in one > > > > > >> position and not brought on by anything serious. You could have > > the > > > > > >> suppleness of a yogi or ballerina and still experience 'pain' > > from > > > > > >> sitting for an hour - in contrast to the very real pain caused > > by > > > > > >> something more serious. Vipassana meditation encourages you to > > face > > > > > >> that discomfort and gain insight into the impermanence of that > > > > > >> pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes to it (usually > > > > > >> aversion). Or you could just wave a white flag to it ; ) > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ Hooah! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Mike > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ________________________________ > > > > > >> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> <mailto:BillSmart@> > > > > > >> > To: [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48 > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ > > > > > >> > Mike, > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my butt and not > > my > > > > > >> discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the various attributes > > > > of my > > > > > >> zafu while sitting. Like, 'What is it that keeps me off the > > floor?'. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation retreats)I have > > sat > > > > > >> as long as 40 mins periods, and even up to 60 mins occasionally > > > > when the > > > > > >> > time-keeper goes to sleep. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back. I will > > make > > > > > >> some adjustments to try to alleviate the pain and continue > > sitting, > > > > > >> but if that fails I'll just get up, walk around a little and > > then > > > > > >> return to sitting. Usually pain in the legs or back is do to > > bad > > > > > >> sitting posture so I make sure my posture is correct when I > > > > return to > > > > > >> sitting. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Bill!, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > So it's safe to say you have no attacments to where or how > > you > > > > > >> sit, other than what is comfortable at that particular time? > > Same > > > > > >> with the jhanas. They take you deeper into your meditation and > > help > > > > > >> to make the session last longer (much like discovering a zafu > > that > > > > > >> fits your bum correctly ;) But they are not essential. There > > are > > > > > >> warnings aplenty in the literature I've read against becoming > > > > > >> attached to them just like anything else (at the risk of > > becoming a > > > > > >> 'bliss-bunny'). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins depending on > > how > > > > > >> busy I am. If I have time I'll do this twice a day, but at > > least > > > > once > > > > > >> in the evening. I usually sit cross-legged, but will sometimes > > sit > > > > > >> Burmese style. If I'm feeling that the session is going well > > (in a > > > > > >> vipassana sense), but the pain is becoming too distracting, > > then > > > > I'll > > > > > >> stay mindful of my movements, but change to a more comfortable > > > > > >> position. However, the 40-60 min session is usually done with > > no > > > > > >> movement or changing of position whatsoever (I wasn't kidding > > when I > > > > > >> said vipassana is the SAS of meditation > > sessions!).ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Mike > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ________________________________ > > > > > >> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > >> > > To: [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011, 16:08 > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ > > > > > >> > > Mike, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > At home I have a zafu and zabuton. My zafu is x-large to > > > > > >> accomodate my x-large butt. I sit cross-legged now. I used to > > sit in > > > > > >> a half-lotus but never could really manage a full-lotus. I > > > > eventually > > > > > >> found the half-lotus to put me into a little bit of a tilt so I > > now > > > > > >> just sit cross-legged, and switch the top and bottom leg > > > > occasionally > > > > > >> when I remember to do so. I usually sit for 3-consequtive > > 20-minute > > > > > >> periods with a 5-minute break in between to get up and stretch, > > walk > > > > > >> around or go to the toliet. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > When I travel I just stuff a pillow between my legs and sit > > in a > > > > > >> kneeling position; or if that doesn't work I just sit on a firm > > > > chair > > > > > >> (wood is best), sitting on the front edge with my back straight > > and > > > > > >> not leaning against the chair. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > How about you? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > ...Bill! > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Bill!, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >or (IMO) ATTACHMENT to jhanas. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Do you usually use a zafu/mat etc. to sit zazen, or do > > you > > > > just > > > > > >> sit wherever? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Mike > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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