date:20041212



There is a learned and friendly discussion between the erudite Mark and the
erudite Brent.

I think there is no doubt that there are many people of good will who invite
peoples of their own Faith to look lovingly at the OTHER.

I am particularly grateful to Mark Foster for providing this link 
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305972
it raised my awareness of Hindu sensitivities to another stratosphere...

and I am most appreciative of the beautiful authoritative references Brent
has adduced for my learned friend Gilberto...

And Mark is right that since 1893 and the Columbia Exposition of Religions
in Chicago where the Name of Baha'u'llah and His Mission was mentioned by
Reverend Jessup many Hindus have been kindly disposed towards Islam in the
West.
BUT equally there are groups and thinkers amongst them who are frightened
and apprehensive

*
After a brief overview of History-Centrism, the main purpose of this essay
will be to explain the problems that Hinduism is facing because of #2, i.e.,
the false myth that it is the same as other religions. I shall show that the
Sameness Myth suffers from at least three problems: 


Sameness with all other religions is incompatible with authentic Hindu
dharma. 

Sameness is making Hinduism irrelevant and redundant. It is sliding Hinduism
towards extinction by dilution and assimilation, in the same manner as
Christianity's inculturation strategy made many pagan religions extinct. It
positions Hinduism as a takeover target by History-Centric predators, with a
friendly takeover of some components and a hostile takeover and/or outright
cultural genocide of other components.

In the aftermath of such takeovers the predators become stronger and the
world less safe. Hence, sameness can at best be a short-term alternative and
antidote to History-Centrism but it leads to unstable states of power that
eventually feed more History-Centrism. 
The opposite of sameness is difference. Many scholars have considered
'difference' to be the source of tensions and violence. Hence, they promote
the sameness myth. However, this is a European view based on their
experience with Abrahamic religions that are History-Centric. This view does
not apply to non-European cultures such as the Indic traditions that have a
worldview of difference-with-respect. 
Difference-with-respect is an attitude that is practically unachievable
through History-Centric religions, except in the form of artificial
political correctness commonly referred to as 'tolerance'. 

My thesis of difference-with-respect is at odds with both #1 and #2 poles
above. Furthermore, each pole's frenzy feeds the other: 


Moderate Hindus recoiling against religious violence have tended to
gravitate towards sameness in order to dilute their distinct identities, and
hence absolve themselves of 'Hindu shame'.

Conversely, many Hindus who are concerned about the way the Sameness Myth
deconstructs (and eventually destructs) their faiths have jumped on the
History-Centrism bandwagon for identity protection, in the form of Hindutva.

The following factors have contributed to the Sameness Myth: 

U-Turns and American Perennialism: Historically, sameness emerged out of
19th century neo-Hindu leaders' constructions of Hinduism that often mapped
Indic categories on to Western ones[1]. For instance, Swami Vivekananda
successfully popularized Hinduism in 19th century America. But later, many
of his important Western disciples and sympathizers genericized Hinduism.
Several of them eventually did U-Turns back into Western identity and
Western thought. Perennialism and the New Age movement were by-products of
such movements[2]. Meanwhile, the mainstream History-Centric Christianity
did not dissolve itself or melt itself into sameness, but, on the contrary,
it strengthened its positioning by appropriating from Hinduism. 

Opportunistic Hindu gurus: The Sameness Myth took a quantum leap in the
1960s when many Hindu gurus arrived in America. They attracted huge
followings and piled up vast donations by playing the sameness game to
appeal to the pop culture at the expense of authenticity. They lowered the
bar for Westerners to enter into pop Hinduism, but this also lowered the bar
to their exit once the fad had died and once enough components from Hinduism
had been successfully appropriated into Western systems. (See details.[3]) 

Postmodernist intellectualism: Postmodernism is the academic equivalent of
pop Vedanta as an intellectual framework to deconstruct identity. (While
Vedanta deconstructs the individual ego, postmodernism mainly deconstructs
the collective cultural identity.) It has intellectually disaggregated
Hinduism into a library of random clip art that may be clicked-and-dragged
into any belief system under the control and discretion of the new owner.
(For instance, postmodernist frameworks allow scholars such as Courtright to
misinterpret Hindu symbols arbitrarily, and to sell their works successfully
at the

Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:26:25 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Our friend Gilberto wrote:
 
 There are also scathing condemnations of Muslims as a community
 
 In the Baha'i Writings there are criticisms of Jews who did not recognize 
 Jesus Christ, and Christians who did not recognize Muhammad, and Muslims who 
 did not recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and have mercilessly persecuted 
 Their followers.  It is a huge responsibility to reject the new Prophet of 
 God when He appears, and not in keeping with the concepts of the people who 
 await Him.

Sure, and the Quran has both positive and negative statements about
Jews and Christians as well. But I wouldn't claim to be Jewish or
Christian in any sense, and I would want to be more open about my
criticisms of those religions.

Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and
juggle. One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic
entities (i.e. Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are
true. And secondly, can Bahai claims  be fairly described as affirming
Islam in a positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.

I think your response largely deals with the first part to some degree
but doesn't really address the second question (which is fine).

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

Gilberto,

If I might jump in ...

At 03:22 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote:
One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e. 
Muhammad, the Quran, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true.

Both Sunnah and Ashyaa claim to follow the legitimate successors to Muhammad. 
The only reason I accept the Imams is because their authority is established by 
Baha'u'llah. 

In terms of the ahadith, those which have been discussed by Baha'u'llah or 
`Abdu'l-Baha have authority in a Baha'i context. However, this is an entirely 
different matter from whether a particular hadith accurately reflects the words 
of Muhammad or His successors. In other words, a citation establishes 
authenticity in a Baha'i scriptural context. It does nothing to lend, or 
detract, the historical credence, or absence of it, which might be given to a 
tradition.

And secondly, can Bahai claims  be fairly described as affirming Islam in a 
positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.

No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They 
are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., the 
period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as 
truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an 
earlier or a later one. Truth is relative.

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

Dear Gilberto Simpson
You have asked both Brent Poirier and Mark Foster an interesting question
and I am sure they will reply soon. It is a question you have addressed them
and they will reply. But it is night time in the US and daytime in the UK so
with their permission and your indulgence I will add a note to your question
below:
** Ok, there are at least two big questions we could toss around and juggle.
One would be whether the Bahai claims regarding Islamic entities (i.e.
Muhammad, the Qur'án, the imams, hadith, etc.) are true. And secondly, can
Bahai claims be fairly described as affirming Islam in a positive sense, or
do they result in co-opting IslamGilberto**

I [kf] must say parts of your question are challenging but very good indeed
:)
I would beg you to read and read...

The Faith of his holiness Baha'u'llah of course accepts the truth of Islam
and the Qur'an.
*** the glowing tributes paid by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan to Muhammad
and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the peerless and
incomparable Imam Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and
publicly by Abdu'l-Baha, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the
validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the
written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith
and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek
Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as
a result of the perusal of these public discourses of Abdu'l-Baha, been
prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad -
all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Baha'i Faith
towards its parent religion. 
(Shoghi Effendi:  The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 108-109)***

How can they any longer idly contend that a certain person hath spoken this
or that way, or that a certain thing did not come to pass?  HAD THERE BEEN
ANYTHING CONCEIVABLE BESIDES THE BOOK OF GOD WHICH COULD PROVE A MORE POTENT
INSTRUMENT AND A SURER GUIDE TO MANKIND, would He have failed to reveal it
in that verse? 
(Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 203-204)

  Consider thou and call to mind the time when Muhammad appeared.  He said,
and His word is the truth: `Pilgrimage to the House(Mecca) is a service due
to God.'( from the Qur'an)  And likewise are the daily prayer, fasting, AND
THE LAWS WHICH SHONE FORTH ABOVE THE HORIZON OF THE BOOK OF GOD, THE LORD OF
THE WORLD AND THE TRUE EDUCATOR OF THE PEOPLES AND KINDREDS OF THE EARTH.
It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained;
and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His
Messengers and in His Books
(Baha'u'llah:  Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Pages: 108-109)

The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and
ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated.
And of course all humanity is [co-opted] if by that you mean summoned or
lovingly invited  to ascertain the truth of a Faith which is at once the
essence, the promise, the reconciler, and the unifier of all religions.

All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as
well.

But of course there are many perceptions of Islam in the world...and all
issues have been obfuscated because of Islamism or Qut.bism as ideologies.
I shall not go there...But one can de-couple in one's mind the essence the
truth from the accidents the contingents.

The essence is divine. The contingents are contingent and change in
accordance with the Primal Will. [MASHIYYAT E AWWALIYYAH]
** And know thou that He indeed resembleth the sun. Were the risings of the
sun to continue till the end that hath no end, yet there hath not been nor
ever will be more than one sun; and were its settings to endure for
evermore, still there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun.  It
is this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and
speaketh forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as
the First deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last
oweth its lastness unto It. 
 In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in
Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in
Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the
Apostle of God; the day of the `Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God
shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom
God shall make manifest.  Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by
the Apostle of God, `I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth
resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and
the same sun.
(The Bab:  Selections from the Bab, Page: 126)

And in a much more tentative and provisional translation of a Tablet with a
similar teaching:
*** 

Bahaullah: Alwah-i-Had.rat-e-Bahaullah shaamil-I-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893]
pages

Eternal Truth -1-

2004-12-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

But hear, O My brother, My plaint against them that claim to 
be associated with God and with the Manifestations of His 
knowledge, and yet follow their corrupt inclinations, consume 
the substance of their neighbour, are given to wine, commit 
murder, defraud and slander each other, hurl calumnies against 
God, and are wont to speak falsely. The people attribute all 
these deeds unto Us, whilst their perpetrators remain 
shameless before God. They cast aside that which He hath 
enjoined upon them and commit that which He hath forbidden. 
Yet it behoveth the people of truth that the signs of humility 
should shine upon their faces, that the light of sanctity 
should radiate from their countenances, that they should walk 
upon the earth as though they were in the presence of God and 
distinguish themselves in their deeds from all the dwellers of 
the earth. Such must be their state that their eyes should 
behold the evidences of His might, their tongues and hearts 
make mention of His name, their feet be set towards the lands 
of His nearness, and their hands take fast hold upon His 
precepts. And were they to pass through a valley of pure gold 
and mines of precious silver, they should regard them as 
wholly unworthy of their attention.

These people, however, have turned aside from all this and 
placed instead their affections upon that which accordeth with 
their own corrupt inclinations. Thus do they roam in the 
wilderness of arrogance and pride. I bear witness at this 
moment that God is wholly quit of them, and likewise are We. 
We beseech God to suffer Us not to associate with them either 
in this life or in the life to come. He, verily, is the 
Eternal Truth. No God is there but Him, and His might is equal 
to all things.  (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 
60)


Every eye, in this Day, should seek what will best promote 
the Cause of God. He, Who is the Eternal Truth, beareth Me 
witness! Nothing whatsoever can, in this Day, inflict a 
greater harm upon this Cause than dissension and strife, 
contention, estrangement and apathy, among the loved ones of 
God. Flee them, through the power of God and His sovereign 
aid, and strive ye to knit together the hearts of men, in His 
Name, the Unifier, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that ye may taste the 
savor of such deeds as are performed in His path, and partake 
of the sweetness of such humility and submissiveness as are 
shown for His sake. Forget your own selves, and turn your eyes 
towards your neighbor. Bend your energies to whatever may 
foster the education of men. Nothing is, or can ever be, 
hidden from God. If ye follow in His way, His incalculable and 
imperishable blessings will be showered upon you. This is the 
luminous Tablet, whose verses have streamed from the moving 
Pen of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds. Ponder it in your 
hearts, and be ye of them that observe its precepts. 
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 
9)


Ponder a while. What is it that prompted, in every 
Dispensation, the peoples of the earth to shun the 
Manifestation of the All-Merciful? What could have impelled 
them to turn away from Him and to challenge His authority? 
Were men to meditate on these words which have flowed from the 
Pen of the Divine Ordainer, they would, one and all, hasten to 
embrace the truth of this God-given, and ever-enduring 
Revelation, and would testify to that which He Himself hath 
solemnly affirmed. It is the veil of idle imaginations  which, 
in the days of the Manifestations of the Unity of God and the 
Day Springs of His everlasting glory, hath intervened, and 
will continue to intervene, between them and the rest of 
mankind. For in those days, He Who is the Eternal Truth 
manifesteth Himself in conformity with that which He Himself 
hath purposed, and not according to the desires and 
expectations of men. Even as He hath revealed: So oft, then, 
as an Apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire 
not, do ye swell with pride, and treat some as impostors, and 
slay others.

There can be no doubt whatever that had these Apostles 
appeared, in bygone ages and cycles, in accordance with the 
vain imaginations which the hearts of men had devised, no one 
would have repudiated the truth of these sanctified Beings. 
Though such men have been, night and day, remembering the one 
true God, and have been devoutly engaged in the exercise of 
their devotions, yet they failed in the end to recognize, and 
partake of the grace of, the Day Springs of the signs of God 
and the Manifestations of His irrefutable evidences. To this 
the Scriptures bear witness. Thou hast, no doubt, heard about 
it.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of 
Baha'u'llah, p. 82)

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Eternal Truth -2-

2004-12-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Though the purpose of Him Who is the Eternal Truth hath been 
to confer everlasting life upon all men, and ensure their 
security and peace, yet witness how they have arisen to shed 
the blood of His loved ones, and have pronounced on Him the 
sentence of death. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings 
of Baha'u'llah, p. 115)


Whoso hath, in this Day, refused to allow the doubts and 
fancies of men to turn him away from Him Who is the Eternal 
Truth, and hath not suffered the tumult provoked by the 
ecclesiastical and secular authorities to deter him from 
recognizing His Message, such a man will be regarded by God, 
the Lord of all men, as one of His mighty signs, and will be 
numbered among them whose names have been inscribed by the Pen 
of the Most High in His Book. Blessed is he that hath 
recognized the true stature of such a soul,  that hath 
acknowledged its station, and discovered its virtues.

Much hath been written in the books of old concerning the 
various stages in the development of the soul, such as 
concupiscence, irascibility, inspiration, benevolence, 
contentment, Divine good-pleasure, and the like; the Pen of 
the Most High, however, is disinclined to dwell upon them. 
Every soul that walketh humbly with its God, in this Day, and 
cleaveth unto Him, shall find itself invested with the honor 
and glory of all goodly names and stations.  (Baha'u'llah, 
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 159)


He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth 
undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is 
reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence 
is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of 
the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine 
unity; this is its fundamental principle.

Some, deluded by their idle fancies, have conceived all 
created things as associates and partners of God, and imagined 
themselves to be the exponents of His unity. By Him Who is the 
one true God! Such men have been, and will continue to remain, 
the victims of blind imitation, and are to be numbered with 
them that have restricted and limited the conception of God. 
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 
166)


Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding 
heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the 
characteristics that distinguish man's station. He Who is the 
Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. 
His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not 
until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil 
asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His 
wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God 
is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him 
Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His 
knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision 
and fidelity, the doings of all men. Say: Praise be to Thee, O 
Concealer of the sins of the weak and helpless! Magnified be 
Thy name, O Thou that forgivest the heedless ones that 
trespass against Thee! (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the 
Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 204)


Grieve thou not over those that have busied themselves with 
the things of this world, and have forgotten the remembrance 
of God, the Most Great. By Him Who is the Eternal Truth! The 
day is approaching when the wrathful anger of the Almighty 
will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, 
the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the 
earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give 
it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto 
Him.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of 
Baha'u'llah, p. 208)


All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing 
civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the 
beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that 
befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and 
loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the 
earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal 
stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is 
the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My 
name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully 
recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been 
revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been 
created.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of 
Baha'u'llah, p. 215) 

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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:07:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
 And secondly, can Bahai claims  be fairly described as affirming Islam in a 
 positive sense, or do they result in co-opting Islam.

Mark:
 No religion can be co-opted. They are each distinct divine Revelations. They 
 are, in effect, like Kuhnian paradigms for a particular Dispensation, i.e., 
 the period of time between one Prophet and the next. What may be evaluated as 
 truthful contingent on one Revelation may be judged as false based on an 
 earlier or a later one. Truth is relative.

Gilberto:
I think it is probably illuminating to think of different religions as
paradigms. But then the view of progressive revelation and that time
and date make a big difference  is ITSELF  part of the Bahai paradigm
but there are others.

One paper I found which I like on this subject is:

called 

The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective

and is available at:
http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm

What I like about is that it articulates ideas similar to perennialism
while rooting them very much in the Quran and the Sufi philosophical
tradition.

Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time,
I think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing
simultaneously.

For each We have appointed from you a Law and a Way (shir'atan wa
minhajan). Had God willed, He could have made you one community. But
that He might try you by that which He hath given you [He hath made
you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye
will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye differed.
(5:48).

So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are
different groups of human beings each following paths which are
meaningful to them. I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of
civilizations hypothesis (at least not the political implications) but
I think that the gulf between civilizations can often be bigger than
the gulf across ages, within the same civilization. And a good example
would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of Buddhism,
Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual
foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there
is a real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions
are still meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can
hear the sound of one hand clapping, if that made any sense.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

Dear Khazeh
Wow, thanks for all that info. That's alot of content. Let me just
respond to a  few things:

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:17:19 -, Khazeh Fananapazir 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations, and
 ordinances of the Dispensation are abrogated.

And that sounds nice, but in certain respects it falls short.

 All the believers were encouraged in innumerable letters to study Islam as
 well.
 
 But of course there are many perceptions of Islam in the world...and all
 issues have been obfuscated because of Islamism or Qut.bism as  
 ideologies.

To be honest I've never understood what Islamism is. I think it's a
made up term but I'm not sure there is a coherent consistent concept
underneath. Muslims are supposed to live out their faith and
positively influence the society around them, in the religious
sphere, but also in culture, business, family life, the local
neighborhood, and other levels. But I've never heard a good
explanation of what the difference is between a serious Muslim who
promotes Islam in the world, and an Islamist.



  Of course there are many discussions within the Islamic community about
 corruption of Hadith. Interestingly the Sacred Iqan of Baha'u'llah also
 quotes the same verses
 http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html
 

Actually there is a serious question of whether this group should be
thought of as within the Islamic community. This position that
hadith are generally corrupt and unreliable was popularized by Rashid
Khalifa. And he didn't stop by getting rid of hadith but he also had
this mathematical scheme which he used to start excluding verses from
the Quran as well. And then some time either before or after that he
declared himself to be a prophet.

Something else to realize is that the Quran itself is not unlike the
hadith. The Quran was transmitted to subsequent generations by the
companions who witnessed Muhammad while he was reciting the verses of
the Quran. And although some of it was written down on different
objects and surfaces, some of it was preserved mainly in memory. And
the same mechanism we get Quran from is the same mechanism we get the
hadith from. (In fact, some hadith have about as many witnesses and
transmitters as some parts of the Quran) And if you trust someone
enough to lend them $500 then you should trust them enough to lend
them $5.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

Dear Gilberto
Simpson

You have
again most kindly read my letter and made some comments. I appreciate your
comments and questions and although I know not where your home is in space or
cyberspace your thoughts of peace are reciprocated warmly. In fact the Holy Quran
says: Never say to any one who summoneth you unto Peace [SALAAM] Thou are not a
Believer.

004.094
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of God,
investigate carefully, and say not
to any one who offers you a salutation: Thou art none of a
believer! ... For God
is well aware of all that ye do.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way
of God, be careful to
discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: Thou art not a
believer, God is
ever Informed of what ye do.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you go to war in God's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you
peace: You are not a believer.
surely God is aware of what you do.

So in the
spirit of replying to your Peace I offer a few more ideas but now night has
fallen here where I write so I will be brief [and our weekend is over].

I have
NUMBERED your points [ONE to THREE]

Firstly in
relation to Point Two this servant was referring to a point which is highlighted
everywhere but of course not in the BahaI sacred Scripture. It is the
politicization of Scripture and Faith.

. Its
history is long in Islam. It started with Ibn Taymiyyah [God rest his soul]
rah.imahu Allah

Shaykh ul-Islaam Taqi-ud-Deen Ahmad
ibn Taymiyyah [1263-1328 CE]. If you look Taymiyyah and follow it through you
will learn why so many people wish to follow him

Something non offensive
is here too

http://hnn.us/articles/1671.html

in relation to your POINT ONE] Gilberto
namely** The Faith of Islam is confirmed. Some of the rules, regulations,
and

ordinances of the
Dispensation are abrogated.

And that sounds nice,
but in certain respects it falls short.**

I do not know what falls
short.

The Divine Revealer, the
Manifestation of God, has the power to change and alter whatever He [on behalf]
of God ordaineth.

Again with all humility I
beg you to read and read again the Iqan.

[A Baháí in the
East read it more than a hundred times and said that on the nth time he leant
infinitely more than he did on the [n-1]th time !]

These clouds signify, in one
sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the
repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men,

By the term
clouds is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and
desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted:
As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire
not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying
others. These clouds signify, in one sense, the
annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of
rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the
illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense,
they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man,
with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory
and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the
minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically
referred to as clouds.

These are the
clouds that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of
all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed:
On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds. Even as the
clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things
hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. To
this beareth witness that which hath proceeded out of the mouth of the
unbelievers as revealed in the sacred Book: And they have said: `What
manner of apostle is this? He eateth food, and walketh the streets. Unless an
angel be sent down and take part in His warnings, we will not believe.'

(Baha'u'llah:
The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 71-72)

** Among them is the tradition, And when the Standard of
Truth is made manifest, the people of both the East and the West curse
it. The wine of renunciation must needs be quaffed, the lofty heights of
detachment must needs be attained, and the meditation referred to in the words
One hour's reflection is preferable to seventy years of pious
worship must needs be observed, so that the secret of the wretched
behaviour of the people might be discovered, those people who, despite the love
and yearning for truth which they profess, curse the followers of Truth when
once He hath been made manifest. To this truth the above-mentioned tradition
beareth witness. It is evident that the reason for such behaviour is none
other than the annulment of those rules, customs, habits, and ceremonials to
which they have been subjected. Otherwise, were the Beauty of

Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

I wrote:

However, since this subject is not, to my knowledge, clearly discussed in the 
Baha'i primary sources, I try not to limit my speculations.

That should be, I try to limit my speculations. 

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

This servant would agree with Mark Foster and of course it is a wonderful
wonderful paper by Reza Shah Kazemi so soon after the 9/11 tragedy.
Presented at Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East Conference
October 18-20, 2001
University of South Carolina, USA

There are echoes of Divine Immanence more than Divine Transcendence in this
paper.

But I would like to accentuate its positive features more.
[For the distinction between Immanence and Transcendence in His holiness
Baha'u'llah's Writings please I beg you read:
http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/basit.html
Bahá'u'lláh first explains the nature of the division among Muslims over
Mullá Sadrá's dictum and the associated concepts. He brings forward verses
from the Qur'an in support of both positions. For those who follow Mullá
Sadrá's position, which he here calls Tawhíd-i-Wujúdi (existential oneness),
Bahá'u'lláh quotes the Qur'anic verse All things perish save [His] face
(28:8, cf. 55:27) and interprets this to support the position of those those
who assert that the only reality is the Divine Reality. For those who
opposed Mullá Sadrá's position, which he here calls Tawhíd-i-Shuhúdí
(oneness in appearence only), Bahá'u'lláh quotes the Qur'anic verse We
shall show them Our signs on the horizons and in themselves. (41:53) This
he interprets as saying that any evidence of union between the Divinity and
creation is only the result of the fact that the signs of God are apparent
in all things.

Having defined the two sides of the conflict, Bahá'u'lláh asserts that those
who have attacked Mullá Sadrá's position have looked only at the literal
meaning of his words rather than the underlying meaning. He then goes on to
give an interpretation of Mullá Sadrá's dictum in terms of the concept of
the Manifestation of God. This is one of Bahá'u'lláh's most explicit
statements of one of the most interesting and controversial aspects of his
doctrine: his assertion that all of the statements that occur in the
scriptures relating to God (including references to His names and
attributes, and statements about His actions and commands) refer in reality
to the Manifestation of God, since no statement can be made about the
Essence of God, which is unknowable.
http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/basit.html

and on the whole we should not look too critically at our fellow human
being's thoughts

Warn, O Salman, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too
critical an eye the sayings and writings of men.  Let them rather approach
such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving
sympathy.  ...
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Pages: 329-330)

But Transcendence of the Essence is asserted very strongly in the First
Section of the Gleanings

http://home.connection.com/~watler/Bahaullah/Writings/gwb/gwbFrame.htm


Exalted, immeasurably exalted, art Thou above the 
strivings of mortal man to unravel Thy mystery, to 
+P4 
describe Thy glory, or even to hint at the nature of 
Thine Essence.  For whatever such strivings may accomplish, 
they never can hope to transcend the limitations 
imposed upon Thy creatures, inasmuch as 
these efforts are actuated by Thy decree, and are begotten 
of Thine invention.  The loftiest sentiments 
which the holiest of saints can express in praise of 
Thee, and the deepest wisdom which the most learned 
of men can utter in their attempts to comprehend 
Thy nature, all revolve around that Center Which is 
wholly subjected to Thy sovereignty, Which adoreth 
Thy Beauty, and is propelled through the movement 
of Thy Pen. 

 Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered 
such words as must of necessity imply the existence 
of any direct relationship between the Pen of 
Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. 
***
Even the PEN is transcendent...


With great respect to
http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith
_dialogue.htm

The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Quranic Perspective

Dr Reza Shah-Kazemi


Abstract

This article presents the Quran as a source of dialogue amongst different
belief systems. Through deft exegesis of various Quranic verses, in Sufi
tradition, the claim is made that the Quran not only supports, but also
wholeheartedly encourages the pluralism of faiths in todays world while
vehemently opposing religious nationalism and fanaticism. In an effort to
achieve understanding, appreciation and harmony, it is imperative that
Muslims bring to light that which unites all peoples in their various belief
systems so as to enter into constructive and inspired dialogue with others.
The Quran enjoins upon Muslim the understanding of other faiths and peoples
as a means of attaining spiritual enlightenment: knowing oneself, knowing
others and knowing God are inextricably linked.

...
The Metaphysics of Oneness

The metaphysics, or science of oneness, on the other hand, does not so much
abolish as attenuate, not equalize but

Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:18:00 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Springboarding from:
 
 The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective

http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith_dialogue.htm

 
 Before substantiating this conception of essential religion or religion as 
 such by citing  particular Qur'anic verses, it is important to mention very 
 briefly the Qur'anic encounter  between Moses and the mysterious personage 
 al-Khidr, not mentioned by name in the  Qur'an. Even in its literal aspect, 
 the story alludes to the distinction between the form  of religion and its 
 transcendent essence, between exoteric and esoteric knowledge.

Mark:
 IMO, that transcendental essence is God, as manifested in His Will, not an 
 ontological perennialism.

Gilberto:
Especially given the other kinds of differences which Bahais seek to
try to reconcile, could it be the distinction you are trying to make
here is more along the lines of
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to?


Gilberto: 
 Instead of one religious dispensation replacing another through time, I 
 think the Quran has more a sense of the communities co-existing 
 simultaneously.

Mark:
 That may be an accurate picture of the Baha'i Golden Age, as well (or at 
 least a certain stage of it). However, since this subject is not, to my 
 knowledge, clearly discussed in the Baha'i primary sources, I try not to 
 limit my speculations.
 
Gilberto:
When I said co-existing I didn't mean to imply anything about the
quality or nature of the relation between them. Crusades and
witchhunts are also included in co-existing. I just meant to suggest
the possibility that God let's us see according to our own paradigms.
That religious diversity is ordained in some sense. There is an
interesting hadith where God says I am as My servant thinks I am.

I think there is a level where I think all religions (except for maybe
the Hale-Bopp followin'-poison-kool-aid-drinking-gun-stockpilin' death
cults)  are all positve in that they all tend to reinforce and affirm
the basic minimal standards of Earthling morality. And then in some
narrower sense, the Abrahamic religions have alot more common ground.
And then there is a sense in which I would say Islam is true and other
religions are less true, but I would be willing to concede that I'm
operating from a particular paradigm and that at the end of things
when we hopefully can see things more clearly we'll all be able to
laugh and say Oh, so THAT's what an elephant looks like

Unto God ye will all return, and He will inform you of that wherein ye
differed. (5:48).

GIlberto:
 So during what you might call a single dispensation, there are different 
 groups of human beings each following paths which are meaningful to them. 
 I'm not a big fan of the whole clash of civilizations hypothesis (at least 
 not the political implications) but I think that the gulf between 
 civilizations can often be bigger than the gulf across ages, within the 
 same civilization.

Mark:
 Often? I am not sure. I would say sometimes.

Gilberto:
I'm talking about religious matters now. Spirituality, theology. 

 And a good example would be Sino-Japanese civilizations where Some mix of 
 Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism have been a big part of the spiritual 
 foundation in that part of the world for about 2600 years, and there is a 
 real timeless quality to those principles, and those traditions are still 
 meaningful to them, but I'm not sure most Westerners can hear the sound of 
 one hand clapping, if that made any sense.

Mark: 
 Zen koans are a good example of why many people, myself included, have always 
 found the Sino-Japanese versions of Buddhism (which are also syncretistic as 
 you imply), to be unnerving. I find the Indo-Tibetan Buddhist traditions much 
 more intelligible. 

Yes, so that would be a decent example of what Im talking about. The
civilizational/cultural  split seems is rather salient even in the
same religion.

Peace

Gilberto

[nice story]

A while back, someone wrote the following to me:
 
 The Sino-Japanese tradition has the habit of 'collapsing' all things into 
 one thing. Therefore in Zen, for example, meditation is all  This same 
 trend is seen in the idea that all that is necessary is to recite the Lotus 
 sutra, Nicheren, or in, Pure Land, to recite the Nambutsu or even dispense 
 with that for total surrender in faith to Amida Buddha. This sort of thing 
 does not amuse the Indo-Tibetan Tradition, nor do they understand it because 
 it is contrary to what Sakyamunibuddha taught, and contrary to the long 
 unbroken tradition of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism that is an uninterrupted 
 continuation of the Buddhasakyamuni's awakening. In this tradition, Buddhism 
 is a path that begins witf elementary insights and practices at a basic level,
 then, having done that, one proceeds to the next level. Nothing is neglected 
 and in this tradition the intellect is understood to be a major

RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam



Spring boarding from:
 
 The Metaphysics of Interfaith Dialogue: A Qur'anic Perspective

http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith
_dialogue.htm

 Dear Gilberto

I was thinking of the Name GERBERT as well as Gilberto tonight 

Gerbert studied in Islamic Universities in Spain and later became Pope
Sylvester the IInd
***
The Muslim State of Spain had cultivated a great civilization and a high
degree of culture. Its well planned cities and well organised public works
including the well laid out streets, parks, schools, colleges and hospitals
made it a model State in the West whose phenomenal cultural, industrial and
social progress was viewed with wonder by the Christian visitor. The Moors
had introduced beneficial irrigation systems and new crops in Spain. The
high class fabrics manufactured in their textile factories were used in the
Royal Houses of Europe. Cordova, the Capital of Moorish Spain was the most
cultured city of Europe. With its 113,000 houses, 21 suburbs, seventy big
libraries and numerous colleges, mosques, palaces, parks and gardens it had
acquired international reputation. With its well-illuminated streets,
Cordova provided a striking contrast to the European cities and according to
John William Draper, Seven hundred years after this time there was not so
much as one public lamp in London... In Paris, centuries subsequently,
whoever stepped over his threshold on a rainy day stepped up to his ankles
in mud.' When the student of the University of Oxford abhorred baths as
heathen custom the Moors enjoyed baths in luxurious establishments. Whenever
the Christian rulers of European States needed an artist, physician or
technical hand, they applied to the Cordova Government. The fame of the
Muslim Capital penetrated as far as the distant Germany where a Saxon nun
(Hrosvitha) styled it as 'The Jewel of the World'.' The great social and
cultural progress of Cordova inspired awe and admiration in the hearts of
European travellers

The Muslims of Spain had taken long strides in almost all branches of
knowledge and had evolved an educational system which embraced all sciences
and arts. A large number of educational institutions had sprung up in the
four corners of the State including in Cordova, Granada, Toledo and Seville,
where learned teachers imparted lessons in the sciences and arts. These
Islamic institutions of Muslim Spain and Sicily were the cradle of modern
European civilization and the training ground of persons like Roger Bacon
and Gerbert Aurillec who ultimately paved the way for the renaissance of
Mediaeval Europe. The Christian students enjoyed absolute religious
tolerance and complete social freedom in Muslim Spain, which attracted large
number of Christian students from all parts of Europe, who after completing
their studies in Moorish Schools went back to their native places and taught
new theories to astonished people. From all parts of Europe, says Robert
Briffault, numerous students betook themselves to the great Arab seats of
learning in the search of light which only there was to be found. Alvaro, a
Cordovan Bishop, writes in the 9th century A.D. 'All the young Christians
who distinguished themselves by their talent, know the language and
literature of the Arabs, read and study passionately the Arab books, gather
at great expense great libraries of these, and everywhere proclaim with loud
voice how admirable is that literature'.' The celebrated Gerbert of
Aurillec who studied in Moorish school, brought from Spain some rudiments of
astronomy and mathematics, and taught his astonished peoples from
terrestrial and celestial globes. HIS GREAT KNOWLEDGE WHICH IN THE WORD OF
WILLIAM OF MALMESBURY WAS 'STOLEN FROM THE SARACEN', HAD MADE HIM AS POPE
SYLVESTER II.

***
The bit about the Oxford University student and baths I testify too as I was
at that Alma mater 12 years...



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RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

Hi, Khazeh,

At 01:53 PM 12/12/2004, you wrote:
Baha'u'llah's Writings please I beg you read: 
http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/basit.html 

One portion reads:

Two stations can be observed in the Divine Unity: Existential Oneness 
(tawhíd-i wujudí), and this is that [station] wherein all things are negated 
with a 'no' and only the Absolute Reality is affirmed. This means the existence 
of nothing is acknowledged except the Absolute Reality, in the sense that all 
things, when compared with Its manifestation and remembrance, have been and 
will continue to be absolute nothingness (fana-yi mahd).

IMO, that is a good example of establishing a revelational paradigm and 
interpreting various doctrines in that context. 

Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger 
-- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam

from Gilberto Simpson


Dear Khazeh, 

Wow, that was again alot of content. Could I ask you a small favor?
Would it be possible to cut-and-paste less, especially if you are not
going to thoroughly discuss something and intersperse comments? In
this last letter it was hard to tell what was the new material and
what was the old.

Dear Gilberto

1] You are right. I am sorry. It was the weekend here and I had a lot to
read and offer. From tomorrow I shall not be able to write so much or
maybe anything at all...


On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:53:49 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/interfaith_dialogue/interfaith
 _dialogue.htm
 
 The width that separates the author from the Utterances of the Seven
Valleys
 of Baha'u'llah is thinner than the thinnest membrane...
 
 And God willing He will one day see that Face too.


My only response would be if that's actually true, then it suggests
that perhaps many of the deep insights which are found in the Bahai
writings were already there in the Quran, in hadith, in the writings
of Sufis and the Islamic philosophical tradition.   And so from a
certain perspective, nothing is really missing.

Peace

Gilberto

2] On THIS SECOND POINT
.And so from a
certain perspective, nothing is really missingGilberto

Yes dear Gilberto again you are RIGHT.

That is why I would beg you beseech you to consider the Text from
Baha'u'llah I offered
this quotation from the IqtidArAt

 

Baha'u'llah: Alwah-i-Had.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893]
pages 86-87.

 

If the peoples of the world were to attain to the [Maqs.ud] purpose [aim,
intention] of God they would not become veiled in the times of the
Manifestation [z.uhur]. Thus although they recited the Book of God for years
they did not attain a letter [h.arf] of its meanings [ma'aani].Thus...

If it be said that all things [kull] were hidden and concealed [mastuur wa
maknuun] in the Book of God, and, further, that in the Manifestation of the
Point of Bayan [may the spirit of all being be His sacrifice!] the
countenances of meanings [ma'aani] heretofore hidden in the chambers of
divine Words [kalimaat] came forth from behind veils then this utterance is
the indubitable truth [h.aqqun laa rayba fihi].

On the other hand

If it be stated that in the past the meanings were mentioned in summary
[ijmaal= abstract, summary, abridged, synopsis] and it is NOW that the
Interpreter [mubayyin] and Expounder [mufas.s.il] has come this utterance is
also true and no doubt attacheth thereunto.

Finally if it be said that all that has appeared [z.aahir] in this New
Wondrous Manifestation has not been there before [na-buudeh] and everything
is a new [badee'] creation, this manner of utterance is also correct and
accurate [sah.eeh. wa tamaam] for if the One True God [glorified be His
Remembrance [Dhikr] speaks a Word- a Word which all peoples have been
speaking from time immemorial nevertheless that Word is NEW were ye to
ponder this theme in depth [tatafakkarun] ...

Baha'u'llah Alwah-i-H.ad.rat-e-Baha'u'llah shaamil-e-Iqtidarat [Bombay 1893]
pages 86-87.

(provisional by this evanescent one)

***

So if you kindly and lovingly repeat the gaze this Passage above says that
in a sense all was revealed, in a sense, the purpose is disclosed NOW, in a
sense, very little was revealed.
***
Thus it is related in the Biharu'l-Anvar, the Avalim, and the Yanbu'
of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke these words:  Knowledge is twenty
and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters
thereof.  No man thus far hath known more than these two letters.  But when
the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters
to be made manifest.  Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of
twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even unto
the Seal, as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having been
sent down with these two letters.  He also saith that the Qa'im will reveal
ALL THE REMAINING TWENTY AND FIVE LETTERS.
(Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 243-244)***

This Day is unique in this respect. The following analogy of the Holy Qur'an
really deeply spiritually referring to this same insight

022.005 
YUSUFALI: O mankind! ...(consider) that We created you out of dust, THEN
[=thumma] out of sperm, THEN [=thumma]out of a leech-like clot, THEN
[=thumma] out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in
order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to
rest in the wombs for an APPOINTED term, THEN do We bring you out as babes,
then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength... and
(further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down
rain on it, it is STIRRED (TO LIFE), IT SWELLS, AND IT PUTS FORTH every kind
of beautiful growth (in pairs). 

I think Gilberto dear brother from one point of view you have received a
lot. I will not

Science and the Future of Religion

2004-12-12 Thread Ron Stephens

Applying the principle of Occam's razor, I like to use the simplest 
explanation possible. If a natural explanation for something exists, 
that is preferable to a more unlikely explanation that involves a 
breaking of natural laws.

I think all of religion can be explained without the breaking of 
natural laws. This doesn't make it any less wonderful. It's sort of 
like this. Life is an emergent phenomenon. Consciousness is a higher 
level emergent phenomenon. At a higher level still, spirituality is an 
emergent phenomenon.

The fact is, you can explain life and consciousness using the laws of 
science. You can do the same with spirituality and religion.

So, I do not believe in what I call physical miracles; that is, 
violations of the scientific laws of the universe (such as gravity).

That does not make spirituality and religion any less wonderful. Far 
from it. Just as life and consciousness are wonderful, even after we 
learn how they operate scientifically, we see them as emergent 
phenomena with significances and meaning beyond their mechanistic 
roots. While we may understand their mechanisms, we are in awe of their 
emergent actuality.

So we can see the hand of God move within human society, but He moves 
through humans and within natural law.

Our language is the result and expression of our consciousness, but 
there is no corresponding language yet for spirituality and religion. 
These are emergent phenomena of a whole other level. So we have no 
language in which to express our spirituality, other than metaphor, 
symbols, myth and hyperbole.

Humanity has evolved with a sense of spirituality, and it needs to be 
expressed in a social and cultural form, an external religion. The 
existing, older religions, while certainly containing the inner 
spiritual core so necessary to mankind, carry too much historical 
baggage now of warfare and bloodshed, intolerance and backwardness.

Baha'u'llah founded the Baha'i Faith as a renewed expression of that 
same eternal inner spiritual religion contained in the previous 
dispensations, but with the intent also that it be in harmony with 
science, reason and logic. He intended for the Baha'i Faith to unify 
the world.

If we take too literal an understanding of the metaphors and symbols 
used by Baha'u'llah and our other Central Figures, we lose the potency 
of its intended role of uniting the world and harmonizing science and 
religion.

Is it possible that this is one of the reasons why the Baha'i Faith 
today is so small in  numbers and has stopped growing? Almost 200 years 
after the birth of Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i Faith is professed by less 
than .1% of the world's population, less than .01% of the USA 
population, and about .001% of the European population. In the USA, the 
number of new declarents is declining every year and is less than the 
actuarial replacement rate; in plain words, the number of Baha'is in 
the USA is declining at an increasingly rapid rate. Both the Christian 
and Islamic Faiths grew much faster in their early years, 
proportionally speaking. By the year 64 AD, Christianity was widely 
enough known to be blamed by Nero for the burning of Rome. By 300 AD, 
between 5% and 10% of the population of the Roman Empire were 
Christians. By 350 AD, the Roman Empire was Christian. In our own age, 
the Mormon church, founded at the same time as the Baha'i Faith, is 
larger in numbers and is still growing.

The early Christian Church had a radical message of love and universal 
human dignity. The Islamic Faith had an equally compelling message of 
monotheism and  social equity. I believe the Baha'i Faith can have an 
equally compelling message (for our day and age) of Unity; unity of 
religions and unity of mental world views, healing the rift between 
science and religion.

In short, I believe that we are still failing to see the true scope of 
the revolutionary change that is necessary. I believe that we are doing 
ourselves a dis-service by emphasizing Entry by Troops, prophecy, and 
doctrinal uniformity. I believe we should be emphasizing the radical 
uniformity of the inner core of the world's spiritual traditions; the 
Baha'i Faith's capability to encompass all of that within a legitimate 
and authoritative historical tradition, without sacrificing anything 
core to the world's religions; the newfound capability of experiencing 
true spirituality without abandoning or short-circuiting science, 
reason and logic; and the possibility of using our powerful science and 
technology to build a new civilization that cherishes and encourages 
spirituality without superstition.




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re: Science and the Future of Religion

2004-12-12 Thread Brent Poirier


I do not believe in what I call physical miracles; that is, 
violations of the scientific laws of the universe (such as gravity).
That does not make spirituality and religion any less wonderful. Far from it.

This reminds me of poets who also know the scientific basis of beautiful 
natural phenomena.  Knowing how the beauty comes about, doesn't remove any of 
the awe at the beauty.

So we can see the hand of God move within human society, but He moves through 
humans and within natural law.

Hand of the Cause Faizi said this is one of the true mysteries of life (and a 
mystery is something that is not only not understandable today; it is something 
that will never be understood) anyway, he said that one of the true mysteries 
in life is that we don't know how much of what we do is our own doing, and how 
much is God's will.  God works through all of us every day, in ways we never 
realize.  Also, God works in mysterious ways, beneath the surface, that we 
gradually realize.

These are emergent phenomena of a whole other level. So we have no language 
in which to express our spirituality, other than metaphor, symbols, myth and 
hyperbole.

The Master has said something very similar in SAQ; and there are many instances 
in the Baha'i Writings of hyperbole.  An example that comes to mind from the 
Iqan, page 223:

Among them was Mulla Husayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory 
of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been 
established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal 
glory.



If we take too literal an understanding of the metaphors and symbols used by 
Baha'u'llah and our other Central Figures, we lose the potency of its 
intended role of uniting the world and harmonizing science and religion.

This reminds me of an important principle Baha'u'llah gave us, to help to 
understand His Writings as He intended them:

As Bah'u'llh says we should take the outward significance and superimpose 
upon it the inner. Either without the other is wrong and defective. (From a 
letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 16 February 1932; Compilation on 
Deepening; The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 215)

I believe that we are doing ourselves a dis-service by emphasizing Entry by 
Troops, prophecy, and doctrinal uniformity. I believe we should be 
emphasizing the radical uniformity of the inner core of the world's spiritual 
traditions ... 

Ron, I don't see how these are inconsistent.  We know that the Writings say in 
a hundred places that the inner core of the religions is the same.  The 
Guardian's secretary also wrote on his behalf:

There are two main principles which the Guardian wishes the friends to always 
bear in mind and to conscientiously and faithfully follow. First is the 
principle of unqualified and wholehearted loyalty to the revealed Word. The 
believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the 
Teachings. Their supreme considerations should be to safeguard the purity of 
the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith. It is only by this means that 
they can hope to maintain the organic unity of the Cause. There can and should 
be not liberal or conservatives, no moderates or extremes in the Cause. For 
they are all subject to the one and the same law which is the Law of God. This 
law transcends all differences, all personal or local tendencies, moods and 
aspirations. (Lights of Guidance, p. 79)


 ... the newfound capability of experiencing true spirituality without 
 abandoning or short-circuiting science, reason and logic; and the 
 possibility of using our powerful science and 
technology to build a new civilization that cherishes and encourages 
spirituality without superstition.

Very eloquent, thank you.

Brent



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Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam